Evidence of meeting #25 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was person.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Noon
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
If no one is hired, how much more will it cost?
Noon
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
It should not cost anything more.
Noon
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
Exactly, the work can be done by the clerk, without delaying the voting process.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Monsieur Guimond, thank you very much. I think that helps clarify it. We certainly will have further discussions on this.
Monsieur Godin, please, then Ms. Redmond.
Noon
NDP
Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It is unfortunate that I must use my allotted time for this, but I would like to begin by commenting on the remarks made by Mr. Jay Hill concerning Ms. Libby Davies' representations. She is not a member of the committee, but she asked a question. It must be remembered that she was given permission to ask this question. It should be remembered that she is a member of the House of Commons and this is not the first time that a member who is not sitting on a committee is heard. New Conservative members are heard quite frequently, and no one makes such comments. I believe that she expressed her opinion in a respectful manner.
The problem raised by Ms. Davis is that in our country, perhaps the most beautiful country in the world, there are many homeless in some regions. This is an ever-present reality in the riding of Vancouver-East.
I too went to South Africa and saw what happens there. They don’t take fingerprints, they mark the thumb with dye, and the dye remains visible for a week. But if they use it during the two weeks previous, it’s too bad, but the thumb gets washed. They don’t need to cut it off. We have the same problem. We talk about the problem of people who may have voted in the advance poll and who vote again on election day. That could be one of the problems.
I’d like to get back to Ms. Davies’ question. It is true that we discussed certain things and we made recommendations. However, we report to members of the House, who may have a different opinion. I believe the question she asked you is clear. Has there been a problem with regard to the people who voted? You say that no one made complaints or none of the complaints were substantiated. I believe the question was a legitimate one. I would like to hear your comments.
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
I have already answered the question, Mr. Chairman, and I will repeat my answer. I have no evidence that would lead me to believe that there has been any fraud in this country, based on the testimony heard. I have no evidence. That is why I agreed with Ms. Davies when she expressed her concerns.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC
I just want to make sure that it will be recorded in the committee minutes and that Ms. Libby Davies knows she didn’t dream it. She reported a fact and you, the Chief Electoral Officer, responded that you had no proof that there had been fraud. She then asked you why so much effort was being put into trying to solve a problem that may not exist.
If a decision is made to ask for an identity card, what do we do to help certain people? Not everyone has had the opportunity to start working young, to buy an automobile and to own this and that. We must recognize that if there is a problem in our society, it must be resolved. I’m sorry, but that person has just as much right to vote as someone in prison.
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
I agree, Mr. Chairman. That is what I said when Ms. Davies asked her question. How do we reconcile all these objectives that may appear contradictory? How can we require proof of identity, and then identify people from whom we do not require proof of identity? That is the question.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
From what I understood, to help voters in Vancouver, lawyers would take oaths from people saying where they came from, what their addresses were.
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
In addition, if I understood the government’s response, which may be included in the Bill—I have not had an opportunity to examine it yet—someone, a voter already on the list, will have to testify on behalf of the person.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
We are not discussing the Bill here. Let us stick to the government report we are working on. A voter can only testify on behalf of a single person.
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Exactly, a person can only swear to the identity of one other person.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Ms. Davies isn’t here to answer, but I believe she was saying that people waited for one or two hours. It may be because they had to verify the identify of many people in that same category, and that slowed down the line. It doesn’t mean that it was the same all across Canada.
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
That may very well be. That may be what happened. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but I know it wasn’t widespread.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I don’t believe she said that the situation was widespread. She was talking about the riding of Vancouver-East and its problem.
12:05 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
I would like to examine this with the returning officer, because it concerns me.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Thank you, Mr. Kingsley. I appreciate that.
We'll move to the third, and potentially last, round. We'll stay with five minutes.
Ms. Redman is up and then Mr. Reid, please.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Can you just clarify something for me? I'll split my time, because Monsieur Proulx wants to ask a question too. Will there be another round, or should I split my time?
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
We probably will have time for another round, but it will be pretty tight. You might want to do that.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
I actually have two questions.
I'm looking for a workable solution, Mr. Kingsley. I appreciate you are saying that maybe you haven't found fraud, but anecdotally I've had many interventions from my members. To take an airplane, which I realize may not be consistent with the lifestyle of someone who's homeless, you need photo ID. I know that in the province of Ontario, people who don't have a driver's licence can go to the Liquor Control Board of Ontario. That is recognized as a photo ID for the age of majority. And I appreciate your offer to bring those forms of ID here.
You say in Mexico that it was $1 billion to institute their photo ID, but Mexico City has as many citizens as we have in all of Canada. The scale isn't quite the same. I'm wondering if we could maybe look at those third-party IDs as a possibility.
The serial vouching was a problem. I think it was Mr. Preston or Mr. Lukiwski who said somebody shows up with a busload of people and says they know all of these people and they'll vouch for all of them. I come from a large urban area in Kitchener. People who are homeless still go to shelters. There are people they interact with daily, whether it's in the St. John's kitchen or elsewhere, who can say this is person X. It seems to me that there are ways to work around this, notwithstanding some of Larry's comments about remote Canada.
I want to underscore--and I wish Libby were still here--there were instances in downtown Toronto where they were showing up with a Time magazine or a Maclean's magazine with a label on it that was passing as some kind of corroboration: “I'm one of the Scott Reids, and this is my address.” I think it is really important that there be a more legitimate way to validate, for everyone.
You mentioned earlier, in response to Mr. Owen's question, about the federally sentenced population. How many people in prison, as a percentage, are you reaching? Notwithstanding that you feel that it's not adequately addressed at this point in time, how many prisoners would get the opportunity to vote now?
12:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
In answer to the last question, all of them have the opportunity to vote now because of the processes we've put in place since the Supreme Court passed its judgment. We reach out to them. We establish a poll in the federal penitentiary.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
So everybody has the opportunity--it's just who avails themselves of it.
12:10 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Every prisoner has the opportunity.
I should also mention that I notify the Elizabeth Fry Society and the John Howard Society all over Canada so they can watch what we're doing as electoral officials.
So all of them have the opportunity. The take-up rate is somewhat less than 50%, if I remember correctly. I don't want to be pinned on that, but it's not more than 50%.
With respect to the ID, it is third-party ID that's contemplated now. This is what is before the committee. Therefore, that's the answer to your question. It's not a separate card. If the committee ever wishes to discuss a separate card.... Obviously in Mexico, I was there, so I know what happened. I've been there since 1993. I know in detail why it cost $1 billion. It wouldn't cost $1 billion in Canada, but it would cost a lot of money. That's why you're not contemplating it at this time. So let's go with the third-party ID and find out.
With respect to vouching, I didn't want to belabour the point, but one person cannot vouch for everybody on the bus. One person has to vouch for one person on the bus; the next person in the bus has to vouch for the next person. That is what this serial vouching really is. The concern you had is that it may appear fishy. All of those people coming in with no ID, what's going on here? That is what you're trying to address, and I have no problem with that. But one must remember that the person doing the vouching has to be there. It's not a letter you sign that you know this person and sorry you couldn't make it to the polls. That doesn't satisfy. The person has to be there. So that's a factor to take into account.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative