Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

You have one minute left, Ms. Davies.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I was going to say that we need to see the evidence, but you're saying you don't have it. When the committee obviously gets into the debate, we're going to have to address this. If we're dealing with a mythical problem yet we're using a sledgehammer to address it in terms of potentially disenfranchising a huge number of people, that would be a very serious concern for us, and I hope other members would share that concern too.

This is a pretty fundamental right that we're talking about. If someone is entitled to vote—i.e., they're a citizen and they're 18 years of age—but we remove that right or diminish it because of the rule we've set up, then I already have lawyers who are saying they believe this would be worthy of a challenge legally, from what they've seen already.

So I'm just saying it's going to be an issue, and we would need to look at that very carefully.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Starting on our second round, we're moving to five minutes now, starting with Mr. Bagnell, please.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

I'm not normally on this committee, so I beg the committee's indulgence. Some of the things I want to put on record are related to elections, but may not be related to today's agenda, because I don't get that much access to the Chief Electoral Officer.

I'd like to talk about a couple of things that have come up in elections. One is related to ID, which we've talked about. I agree with the idea of having ID, but just to emphasize Mr. Owen's point, communities in the Northwest Territories and Nunavut don't have any roads to get there, so most people won't have driver's licences. Youths don't have driver's licences. There just isn't the ID available, so it's a problem for which we're going to have to figure out a solution.

The lists have been problematic in our area. I like a permanent electoral list. I just think we have to refine it better, because we go to every second house and there are people there who don't live there, they've moved, they have way more children than they're supposed to have, etc.

We have a big problem with hospitals in rural areas. It's true that if a person is in the hospital, they can vote. The problem is that for every person in the hospital, sometimes they have between five and ten visitors, especially if it's an acute thing. The problem is that you don't know when you're going to go into the hospital emergency ward. These people come from a hundred miles away because there's only one hospital in the entire Yukon, which is bigger than any country in Europe. People have to come from all over the Yukon, which results in them not being in their riding that day, so they're disenfranchised. They can't vote. There's no way they can get back a hundred miles to vote and there's no way they're going to abandon a person on their death bed who they didn't know was going to be there on election day.

I don't know if we still do voting cards. I don't get involved in the mechanics of the election that much, being the candidate, but there was an issue with this at some time in the past. A voting card came in the mail. In our area, there are a lot of these mailboxes. People go to their mailboxes and they throw out all their junk mail and anything that doesn't have their name on it, so you end up with piles of voting cards all over the place and people can just pick them up and vote with them.

Finally, my last point is on Bill C-16. As the Chief Electoral Officer, I'm sure you must be aware of the problems caused when there are two elections at the same time. That's not very convenient in Canada. It's very confusing for the voter. One election is confusing enough as far as enumeration, advance polls, and all that are concerned.

Unfortunately, we have Bill C-16, which doesn't make a provision that you're going to have elections. The first time there's an election, it's going to be three days away from a Yukon election. My suggestion is that we amend that bill so that there's an ability to change the time of elections by a month instead of three days, really, so that we don't have overlapping elections. I think everyone thinks that would make sense.

I don't know if you want to comment on any of those, but those are things that have come up in elections in my area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I have no problem whatsoever in allowing the time, but we have a minute and a half left. I think the comments on Bill C-16 might be best kept to another time, and maybe we can just focus on some of the other concerns in the minute and a half left.

Thank you.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

With respect to people in hospitals on polling day, the law is clear. For visitors or patients, there is no poll in a hospital. These people would have to have signified that they wanted to vote and stated where they were from. There's no poll in a hospital, which is a short-term facility. When former committees considered this, they recognized that in a hospital you're going to have people from different ridings. This may occur even at a Yukon hospital. If the committee wished to make an exception for hospitals in remote areas, it would have to amend the statute. This is something the committee should consider.

With respect to the VIC, voter information card, it is still being sent to people. Some are being thrown away. I'm having discussions right now with the president of Canada Post to see how we could prevent those cards from circulating. I'll come back to the committee once I'm advised by Canada Post about what they think they can do to help Canadian democracy in this respect.

The other question related to Bill C-16. I'll reply to it at the appropriate time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Hill.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Thank you.

First of all, I have a brief statement to make. I have some difficulty with what Madam Davies was getting at. She said we were going to use a sledgehammer to fix some mythical problem. She's not even part of this committee. This committee had achieved relative unanimity in recognizing a problem with voter fraud. Now she comes in and pretends the problem is mythical and we're using a sledgehammer to address it.

Furthermore, I want to say on record that I agree with her that it's a fundamental right for Canadian citizens to vote. It's an important franchise, and we don't want to disenfranchise them improperly. However, there are certain responsibilities that come with being a Canadian citizen, and we all too often overlook them. One of the responsibilities should be that you have some way to identify yourself. Goodness gracious, where are we going with this? Are we going to suggest that people who can't identify themselves still have this unalienable right to vote? Anyway, that's my little rant in reply to Madam Davies.

I participated in a trip to South Africa this past summer recess, and we had the opportunity to meet with their electoral commission. I was amazed at how advanced their system is. They have a photo ID voters card. They went well beyond what we're suggesting in our report, or in Bill C-31. They went well beyond a driver's licence or two other pieces of non-picture ID. They actually instituted a picture ID card that people are required to have when they go to the polls. In addition, to prevent any potential fraud, they also ink the thumb of the individual. So there's no chance, unless you cut your thumb off, of voting more than once.

I'm asking you, in light of your response to our report, and by extension to Bill C-31, if you believe that what's contained in the bill goes far enough. How many other countries around the world have followed South Africa and taken the precautions to make sure that voters are actually eligible?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chairman, Mexico has an alphanumeric card with photo, with fingerprint, with signature. It cost $1 billion to institute, to install it in Mexico. Brazil has something similar. We've just come back from Panama. They held a referendum over the weekend. They have the same thing. The voters lists have pictures of the electors. They have this in Mexico as well.

Iit's really up to the committee to decide what it would like to do in terms of having ID or not having ID. Frankly, I don't have a magical solution.

What I'm concerned about is how one addresses all of the concerns at the same time. How does one address the concern that we need ID, and then address the concern that a person is honest but doesn't have ID? How do we reconcile this? I leave that up to you to do that. I don't have the answer.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Ms. Davies was referring to the problem--and you just referred to it again--that obviously we want to avoid disenfranchising anyone who has a legitimate right to vote. I say that in all sincerity. However, we want to ensure that someone who perhaps is disenfranchised because they don't have the right to vote, since either they're not a citizen or they're trying to vote in the wrong riding, or for some other reason, may be disenfranchised from voting in the wrong riding, voting illegally, or voting multiple times. So we might be disenfranchising them more than once, and that would be a good thing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Moving on, we'll have Monsieur Guimond, and then Mr. Godin.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Kingsley, before we get back to the bingo cards, I would like to refer you to section 4 of Bill C-31, and I quote:

(2.1) The Register of Electors may also contain [ …] a unique randomly generated identifier [...]

Is it your understanding that this identifier follows the voter from one election to another, or is the identifier solely for the general election under way?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

The unique identifier is designed to follow the voter so that we, and the candidates from all the parties, can follow the voter and make sure it is the same voter.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

From one election to the other?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

From one election to the other, permanently. In other words, there would be one unique number for each person.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Ok.

Mr. Kingsley, I seem to have detected in you some openness towards bingo cards.

Mr. Chairman, I believe that apart from Mr. Proulx, Ms. Picard and me, most of our colleagues here do not know the Quebec system of bingo cards. You have been very polite, you appear to be listening, but in my opinion you do not know specifically what we are talking about.

I propose that at a future meeting, we invite someone from the office of the Directeur général des élections du Québec to come explain to us how the system works. I don’t mean to say that you aren’t smart enough to figure it out, but I have been living with it since it became law in Quebec. In my opinion, it would help the Committee members to better understand the process. In any case, that’s what I’d like to see.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I think part of the reason for today's meeting is to see whether or not we want to move forward on some of the things the government has chosen not to move forward on at this time. I actually have a question for Mr. Kingsley about the bingo cards. I'm just waiting to finish this round.

I will start your time from where you stopped.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Are you taking into account my proposition to invite...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Of course I am. Absolutely.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Okay, thanks.

Mr. Kingsley, I understand your role very well. One of your objectives is the integrity of the process. In other words, you want everyone to have an equal opportunity and that there be no form of partisanship. You also have a secondary and related objective, the fluidity of the voting process. You do not want waiting lines, which was a complaint in previous elections. You want things to keep moving. I think that the bingo card could be integrated without hiring staff. Here’s how.

There is a deputy returning officer and a poll clerk. A voter—let’s say she’s called Diane Davidson—shows up to vote. She is asked for photo ID. She presents her Quebec driver’s licence, which has her photo, date of birth, and address. While she is behind the curtain, in the booth, no one else can come to the table. Do you agree? The other voters are in line, at the entrance to the polling station. While Diane Davidson, voter No. 28, votes in polling division 326, for example, the clerk or the deputy returning officer can make an “X” next to number 28 without any new staff having to be hired.

The fluidity of the voting process is thus preserved. No confidential lists are handed over, there is no need to photocopy NCR cards. With regard to additions at the bottom of the list, if numbers were given—for example, 622 to 630—Diane Davidson would have been added during the revision. Additional lines would have been provided and number 622 could be added by hand to indicate that she came to vote. No additional people would be hired, privacy would be respected, and the voting process would remain fluid.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to be present when the Quebec election office representative is invited.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

I am certain that you or your henchmen will be present.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

I will send Ms. Diane Davidson to attend the session.

On a more serious note, it is important to examine this issue. I would like to be present at this presentation, if there is to be a discussions on how things will be done at the polling station. I consider that to be very important. As you said, I do not want any delays to be created. Earlier on, I heard Ms. Libby Davies say that people had waited hours. I find it difficult to believe that people waited for hours. I would like to see some proof to that effect.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I think that when the discussions come up on Bill C-31 as well, this subject is going to be beaten.

Perhaps I may ask for clarification on the bingo card. In the government's response on page 7, it does indicate that “implementing such an obligation at this time could cost as much as $23.5 million”. Is that your feeling as to the cost of implementing only the bingo card, or does it include other implementation recommendations?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chairman, I alluded to this in my earlier response, but not as directly as I could have. This was based on the fact that under the Quebec model.... This is the only jurisdiction in Canada that has bingo cards, as Mr. Guimond has defined it, to the best of my knowledge. They have hired two people to do this job in the polls.

Apparently, it may not be necessary to have two. If it's only one, then it's $10.8 million. If it's two, it's $23 million, effectively double. We double the number. That's all that it is.