Evidence of meeting #31 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Ladies and gentlemen, let's call the meeting to order.

First of all, thank you, everyone, for coming out today. I apologize for running a bit behind. There was a meeting before us, and I appreciate the work of our support team here getting things ready as quickly as they have.

I would like to advise all members that today's meeting is being held in public. I would also like to advise members that we're going to need about 15 to 20 minutes at the end of the meeting—I will watch the time, of course—to discuss future business regarding our study on Bill C-31, particularly respecting witnesses. But we'll leave that until the end.

The third thing I would like members to be aware of is that we have received some motions. We'll distribute them in one second. Mr. Lukiwski has provided us with motions; I'll distribute those to the committee, and we can discuss them later.

Next, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to welcome the Honourable Rob Nicholson, sponsor of the bill.

Mr. Nicholson, thank you very much for being with us today. If you would be so kind as to introduce your team, then we can begin.

Let me ask folks on the periphery of the room to keep the conversations to a minimum, out of respect for our witnesses.

Mr. Nicholson, please.

11:15 a.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister for Democratic Reform

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to introduce Natasha Kim, a policy analyst in legislation and House planning in the Privy Council Office; Raymond MacCallum, counsel in the human rights law section of the Department of Justice; and beside me is Dan McDougall, director of operations for legislation and House planning in the Privy Council Office.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for inviting me to speak on Bill C-31. But most importantly, and to begin with, I would like to thank you and all the members of your committee for the work you did on the 13th report.

I can tell you that the government has reviewed your report very carefully. We tabled a response on October 20, supporting in principle virtually all of the recommendations you made in that report.

But we did not stop there. Bill C-31 was introduced shortly thereafter, on October 24, and as you know, it is based on the recommendations from the 13th report, recommendations aimed at improving the integrity of the electoral process, recommendations originating from this committee that were developed in a non-partisan, collaborative way.

Mr. Chair, if you take the bill and the government's response together, I think they represent very clearly the intention of this committee, and indeed changes to Bill C-31 at this stage would probably mean revisiting the committee's original recommendations.

That being said, the government is, of course, open to listening to such changes, if it is the will of the committee members, but I would simply say that I agree with Monsieur Guimond, who, in his second reading remarks on November 7, said that Bill C-31 came from an “excellent collaboration among the political parties”.

This is an issue of common concern for all parties, and I would hope you will do everything within your power to expedite the passage of this bill.

I would like to turn to addressing some of the measures in the bill. Because the bill implements the committee's own report, I won't review every measure, of which there are many; rather, having reviewed the second reading debate, there are three in particular that I will address. I will quickly discuss these three issues: voter identification, date of birth on the voters' list, and the unique identifier. I will then take your questions.

First, I'd like to spend some time on the issue of voter identification. Bill C-31 implements the committee's recommendation on this point, and the recommendation had no dissenting opinions. It was formulated after the committee discussed the issue with the Chief Electoral Officer, the Privacy Commissioner, and representatives from the four major political parties. Concerns were raised at that time about ensuring that no voters were disadvantaged because of not having identification.

The result was the balanced approach recommended by the committee and reflected in this piece of legislation. It allows three options: a photo ID, with name and address; two pieces of other identification authorized by the Chief Electoral Officer; or, for those without identification, an oath or affirmation and a voucher.

This is very similar to the current process for registering at the polls, and I think it is important to spend a minute on this point. As you know, to register at the polls you need to have identification or to take an oath and have someone vouch for you.

The Canada Elections Act already forbids vouching for more than one person to get them registered. We have had these safeguards in place for polling day registration for many years. Bill C-31 simply extends the same safeguards from the registration stage to the voting stage, as the committee recommended.

I would emphasize that amendments were made to the Canada Elections Act in 2000 to allow a shelter to be considered a residence. This provision, subsection 8(6) of the act, will continue to apply to facilitate voting by those without a fixed address.

Mr. Chair, the voter identification process will bring the federal system in line with other jurisdictions that require identification, including the province of Quebec, a number of Canadian municipalities, and many other countries.

By providing three options for meeting the ID requirement, Bill C-31 will provide greater voting accessibility than some jurisdictions that do not provide any alternatives to photo ID. For example, some American states that do not provide alternatives to photo ID have encountered legal challenges; on the other hand, states that provide alternatives like those found in Bill C-31 have not.

Each jurisdiction must determine for itself what works best for its system and its electors, and I think we have found the right balance in Bill C-31 between maintaining voter accessibility and protecting the integrity of the Canadian electoral system. Indeed, without a system that functions with integrity, the right to vote would become meaningless.

The other two issues raised on second reading were raised by the Bloc Québécois. First, my Bloc colleagues indicated a desire to amend the bill so that the date of birth would be added to the lists of electors sent to candidates, rather than only on those used at the polls. To this I would note that the committee expressly recommended against this approach in its report.

Further, this appears to be an unnecessary intrusion into the private lives of Canadians without a clear policy rationale. In appearing before the committee, the Privacy Commissioner noted the importance of adhering to privacy principles in formulating legislative recommendations--in other words, the importance of ensuring proportionality between an objective and the degree of privacy intrusion.

The justification for adding the date of birth to the list used at the poll is clear. It improves the integrity of the system, acting as a means of confirming the identity and eligibility of voters. The same justification does not appear to exist for giving the dates of birth of Canadians to individual candidates. Many Canadians are sensitive about such personal information. While it is an important tool to verify identity, we should avoid unnecessary distribution unless there is a pressing reason.

The other issue raised by the Bloc Québécois was with regard to how the provisions on the unique identifier are drafted in the bill. The identifier would be a permanent number or code assigned to each elector by the chief electoral officer and tracked on the voters lists. The bill currently contains permissive language so that the chief electoral officer is authorized to assign identifiers, but not expressly obligated.

We would see no problem with strengthening the language so that the Chief Electoral Officer is required to assign the identifier.

Before concluding, I would note that other issues arose in second reading. For instance, many members raised recurring concerns with the accuracy of lists of electors and the national register. Indeed, this issue was raised in committee and discussed with the Chief Electoral Officer.

As a result, Bill C-31 implements a number of the committee's recommendations that will unquestionably make important improvements to the register and the accuracy of the lists. For example, the bill will clarify a Chief Electoral Officer's authority to have returning officers conduct updating activities between election periods. Such activities could include targeted revision of the register for areas of low registration, such as areas with a high degree of homelessness or on aboriginal reserves. I would further suggest that the committee pass a motion to formally request the Chief Electoral Officer to undertake such initiatives.

In combination with the greater predictability that fixed dates for elections will provide, measures in Bill C-31 will enable better planning and preparation for accurate voters' lists. Of course, there is always more that could be done, and the government fully supports the committee's desire, as it was expressed in recommendation 6.8 of the 13th report, to explore other methods for improving the lists, such as the use of census data or targeted enumeration.

However, in the meantime, I would suggest that we act now to implement the committee recommendations in Bill C-31, and we can continue to work together on other ways to improve our electoral system.

In closing, Mr. Chair, I will simply quote the committee from page 1 of its report:

As Members of Parliament, we are directly concerned with the electoral process, and have first-hand experience with the rules governing the conduct of elections. ... It is important that we use these experiences and the lessons learned to correct deficiencies and improve our electoral system. ...[I]t is important that the necessary legislative changes are made in an efficient and timely manner. The Committee believes that a window of opportunity for legislative changes exists.

Bill C-31 provides these legislative changes. This is an opportunity to implement your recommendations.

Let me say, on a personal note, that I have been involved with many committee recommendations and reports over the last 22 years, and many, if not most, of those committee recommendations did not end up as completely as parts of legislation as your 13th report has, as before you.

I would ask you to seize this opportunity, keeping in mind that this is a minority parliament, of making a difference in the legislative framework of improving the electoral system, enhancing its integrity. With your cooperation and with your leadership in that report, I think this is very possible, and I urge you to act on that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate that.

Colleagues, we're going to open our first round of questioning in the usual format. Just to remind members, we will go seven minutes on the first round and five minutes on the second round, and if we have time for a third round, certainly we'll do that.

First on my list is Madam Jennings, please.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I have a very short question, and then I'll share my time with my colleagues, if they have any subsequent questions.

We heard testimony on the issue of identity cards which will be required following amendments to the bill. These amendments affect remote communities and especially Aboriginals, who often don't have any other identification card than their status card which, I believe, is issued by the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. However, the current Chief Electoral Officer of Canada does not recognize that card as identification.

I'm wondering whether that is in fact the case. If we look at section 21 of the bill, which amends section 143 of the current legislation, subsection 143(2)(b) reads as follows:

(b) two pieces of identification establishing the elector's name and address that are authorized by the Chief Electoral Officer.

I'm wondering whether it wouldn't be a good idea to establish a non-exclusive list of certain cards that the government finds acceptable, especially if these are cards issued by the government. The Chief Electoral Officer of Canada would still retain the power to extend that list.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You've raised a very good point, Madam Jennings. The status card is, of course, acceptable, and you're quite right that being issued by the Government of Canada, it would be one of the pieces of identification that would be acceptable at a polling booth.

In addition to that, individuals could have anything, even a utility bill, establishing their residence, and again we're aware of that. You made a good point, but it is provided for, and of course it is acceptable.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

But the issue is that without these amendments, right now someone who is challenged, as in the last election, would have to provide some form of ID to show they are who they are, even if their name is on the list; they are being challenged that they are not the individual on the list.

Some of our first nations members of Parliament are saying, and have said very clearly, that in past elections, when someone was being challenged and presented their status card as proof of identity, the representatives of Elections Canada in those polling stations refused to accept it. So the point I'm trying to make is that if we leave--

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's hard to believe that was the case, and I'm sure you'll direct that question to the Chief Electoral Officer, who, I believe, is following me.

One of the things this bill provides for is that the Chief Electoral Officer will, in advance of an election, make the acceptable identification absolutely clear. He will publish that and make that available to people, so we don't get that kind of confusion on election day.

As I say, in the past, it was very difficult and quite disconcerting that people who had Government of Canada identification were turned down at a polling station. But this bill will clear up any ambiguity in that regard, and in addition, the CEO will make it very clear the types of identification that are acceptable, so everyone will know that in advance. I think that is as it should be.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

It's not entirely satisfactory, because even then, if the list is published and certain Canadians feel the list isn't complete, it might be too late. But I'll take your comments.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

The alternative, of course, is to have a Canadian citizen vouch for them and take an oath.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Sure. I don't want to get into an argument, but even that can be a problem, because if you have several people, only one citizen can vouch for one, which I am in perfect agreement with. But in remote communities where you may have to travel out of your community to go and vote, then you may not be in a position of having an elector who hasn't already vouched being able to vouch for you--

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You've made an excellent point.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

As I said, I don't want to get into an argument on this--

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

No, I think it's an interesting discussion, and.... Sorry, go ahead.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I will take your comments under advisement, and definitely, when the Chief Electoral Officer comes, I will ask the question to make sure it's on the record, that he in fact does accept these cards as being sufficient proof of identity, along with something else that shows the address, because these cards do not show the person's residential address.

Is there any time left?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Two minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Mr. Proulx.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Very briefly, I have two quick questions, but the second one we'll come back to in the next turnaround. It's with regard to identifying the voters as they vote during the day, but we'll come back to that.

The quick question is the identification process. We've discussed this before at this committee, but I want to look at this again with you and see if there's any solution with regard to the identification of, for example, homeless people, in the sense that they don't have an address; they're not on the list. They show up to vote. Most of them wouldn't have identification cards with photographs, unless it's in the province of Quebec, where we have the medical insurance program card. They don't drive, so they wouldn't have a driver's licence. So they would have to be identified by somebody else. That somebody else who would identify one homeless person could not identify another one, nor could that person who's just been identified, identify another one.

So how do you expect these people to be able to vote? If 50 people show up together to vote, they would need to bring 50 other people who could identify them officially. Do you think this is feasible? Do you think it's reasonable?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's presumed that out of 50 people in a shelter, absolutely nobody will have any identification showing that they are a Canadian citizen. I don't think we can draw that conclusion exactly. But as a result of amendments that were made in 2000, as I indicated in my opening remarks, a shelter is identified as a residence. I think that has helped.

I mentioned as well that we have passed in the House of Commons fixed dates for elections. With Canadians knowing in advance when an election date will be, there will be a certain onus on and encouragement of those who operate shelters and assist homeless people to assist them in the voting process. I think that's one of the things.

We should also--and it's certainly open to this committee--encourage through resolution a greater focus from the CEO's office, which has a huge mandate, of course, to target those particular areas and areas of concern to ensure that they are enumerated and on the list. That's the first step forward. In doing so, they can assist them and make sure they are able to exercise their rights.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Yes, but some are not in shelters.

We'll come back.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

We'll definitely have time.

Mr. Guimond, please.

11:30 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to put a brief question to you minister.

You followed the work of this committee since we undertook consideration of Bill C-31, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Public Service Employment Act. We've had an opportunity to discuss the system that is in place in Quebec. That system enables us to eliminate representatives from each party, which complicates even the physical layout of the tables in polling stations. The committee will be receiving the Québec Chief Electoral Officer, who provides a formula to compile the names of people who have come to vote from the time the polls open. Some doubts were expressed, because it was feared that this would require hiring extra staff. I don't know if this came from you or the returning officer. However, it is possible that in each polling station, the clerk could do this compilation work. This is what we normally call the bingo cards.

Minister, I would like to know if you're opened to amending this bill, if that is the wish of my colleagues here on the committee. This system is not in place in provinces other than Quebec, where it has existed for many years. That's why I suggested we invite people from the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer of Quebec. If that is the wish of the committee, would you be prepared to amend your bill to reflect this, minister?

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I don't want to overly complicate the system, and that actually wasn't what was recommended by the committee. A slightly different system was recommended by this committee, and that's what we adopted. The Chief Electoral Officer indicated that the system you refer to as the bingo card system would cost anywhere from $10 million to $23 million in additional staff and resources. That would be a considerable change.

That being said, I was actually fascinated to hear and learn about the bingo system. In Ontario we have what are known as “draggers' lists”, and we just compare our lists of identified party supporters with the marked-up voters' lists. You will still be able to—and you may not use the term—“drag” your supporters to the polls, but that will still be a possible course with the updated voters' lists you will be provided with. It seems to me you will be given the opportunity on election day to compare that with the marked-up voters' list.

I'm open to the suggestions of this committee, but it seems to me that an expenditure of that type is a considerable change to what we have before us here. Quite frankly, I think at this point in the legislative process it might unduly complicate the passage and implementation of this bill.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

We will try to find a formula that would mean that no extra staff would have to be hired and that would allow for a smooth flow of work at the polling station.

Thank you, minister.

Mr. Chairman, that was my only question. I'd like to give the time I have remaining to Ms. Picard.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Please go ahead, Madame Picard.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, minister.

A little earlier, you stated that the Bloc Québécois had asked that electoral lists transmitted to candidates and parties contain the date of birth of electors, as is the practice in Quebec. You said that you disagreed with this proposal because it could be construed as a violation of electors' privacy.

I don't understand. This practice is common in Quebec and nobody has claimed that this affects the privacy of citizens. Have you contacted those responsible for the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to obtain their opinion on this?

You mentioned the name of a person responsible who looks after the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This practice is allowed in Quebec, which has a very enviable reputation in Canada regarding electoral procedures. Why couldn't this be allowed at the federal level? I don't understand why that decision was taken.