Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Mr. Reid, you have two minutes left.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Like Mr. Hill, I have comment rather than a question for our witness.

In one of his earlier interventions, Mr. Godin said there's no evidence that there's fraud, or there's very little evidence of fraud. I actually thought what I got out of the witnesses who'd been before the committee, and particularly the Chief Electoral Officer and the Commissioner of Elections, was that there really is no way of collecting evidence of voter fraud in Canada due to the way the law is set up now. It was for that reason that I specifically asked the Commissioner of Elections how many prosecutions for fraud we've had in the past number of elections since the 1980s, and we've learned there were half a dozen. That suggests to me that it stretches the balance of plausibility that with 300-odd ridings and five elections in a row, there would only be five cases of voter fraud out there. So I suggest that there is some evidence that there's more fraud than we're able to capture.

It seems to me that is well illustrated by the fact that in the riding of Trinity—Spadina, James DiFiore was able to vote three times--he says once for each party, so at least he cancelled himself out. At any rate, his point was how very easy it is, and the Toronto Star ran a major feature on this, and so on. So it seems to me that it is certainly a problem that's out there and that justifies taking some actions.

The other thing I want to mention is this. We do really want to make sure that people get the chance to vote, including the homeless, including students, including people who, for any reason, don't readily have access to ID. The problem, I think, is that we have to make sure we're designing systems that allow people, everybody who can, to vote, but nobody to vote more than once. I'm not suggesting that anybody in those groups are more likely to vote more than once, but if you start to erode the protections for all of us, we're all being disenfranchised a bit. What we want to do is focus on the positive measures that will help people who are homeless or in other ways likely to be disenfranchised, such as bad enumeration and so on. It seems to me that's not really a legislative problem; that's a problem for administration by the Chief Electoral Officer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Colleagues, I'm noticing discussions versus questions for our witnesses, so I just want to focus back on questions for the witnesses.

Madame Picard is next, and then Monsieur Godin.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Minister, I would like to speak about the right to vote of convicts who are serving a sentence of two years and more. To allow inmates in federal establishments to vote, the chief electoral officer recently had to invoke the adaptation right that he has pursuant to section 17 of the Act.

For what reason did the government drop the committee's recommendation regarding inmates' right to vote from Bill C-31?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you for the question. It's very clear from the Supreme Court decision of, I believe, three years ago that prisoners have the right to vote, and the tools the Chief Electoral Officer has in place now will allow prisoners to vote in this next election. So there has been no intent in this particular piece of legislation to alter that. My understanding is that he will continue to have the legislative ability to provide for prisoners in federal institutions.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

[Le président, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

You want us to stick to the subject at hand, but with all due respect, Mr. Hill said that the opposition could be stalling. As he was in the opposition for a long time, he might know what he is talking about.

I have to agree with Ms. Jennings, and you know that I do not often agree with her. If we do not do our work, the Senate will do it, and then the Senate will be blamed.

Mr. Minister, you were very clear. My question was very clear. You want Canadians to be able to participate in the report. They could not participate because it was done in camera. Mr. Kingsley was called upon to testify in camera; all the work was done in camera. With your permission, I think that we made a mistake and it should be rectified.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Please go ahead. I was just trying to quieten people.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I do not remember what my other argument was.

I cannot speak about what is in camera.

Minister, we can bring witnesses before the committee and quickly adopt the bill. If we can all reach an agreement, the Senate will be more inclined to cooperate than if the bill does not have unanimous support. We have already adopted bills in one day.

The intention is there. I agree with Mr. Reid in saying that what we want is to avoid fraud and give citizens an opportunity to vote. We all agree on that. We, as parliamentarians, are responsible for legislation. Canadians have the right to participate in the process. They asked to participate in the process for this bill, and we will grant them their right.

Do you agree with me?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm of course in agreement with committees doing their work, but I hope you can act in an expeditious manner, because I think time is of the essence.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We understand that.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I threw out the challenge to you that many times you can be in opposition, and you can be around this place a long time, and you may not ever get to affect legislation, as directly as I believe you are affecting legislation, for the good of Canada. I think that's what you have done here.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

The difference is.... Look at this bill here, which everybody agrees with. We don't want fraud, and we want Canadians to vote. And we all understand, then, that to do it in an expedited manner doesn't mean you don't invite Canadians who want to come to meetings. We can do our agenda, we can meet at night, we can do anything and do it fast, and we're doing it.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I wasn't going to tell you how to do your business.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Exactly. We have control of our home.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Exactly.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Thank you, colleagues. That ends our third round. As I mentioned earlier, I'm noticing more debate than questions. I would ask the members here whether they have any more questions for the witnesses. I'll recognize you at this moment.

Seeing no hands for questions, I would just like to thank our people today: the Honourable Minister Rob Nicholson, leader of the government, House of Commons, and Minister for Democratic Reform; Dan McDougall, director of operations, legislation and House planning; Natasha Kim, senior policy adviser, legislation and House planning; and Raymond MacCallum, counsel, human rights law section. We appreciate you being here and being available for any questions the committee would have had for you. I'm happy to dismiss you at this moment.

I would ask that the members of the committee stay in their chairs. We're just going to take a brief break while we go in camera to discuss future business. Thank you witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, we're going to resume the meeting. I would like to just remind you that we are actually still in public right now. My apologies.

Mr. Preston has a report on private members' business, so we are in public while we do this little bit of business.

Mr. Preston, please.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

This would be the second report of the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business. We were asked by this committee to look into a remedy for Ms. Bell, the member from Vancouver Island North, regarding a bill that, through no fault of the Standing Orders, had collided with another bill of a very similar nature. We've come up with our recommendations for this committee on how to remedy that problem. If you'd like, I'll just tell you the recommendations. We'll tell you how we arrived at them. It's in the report.

We've simply said that we will ask Ms. Bell.... She'll have the option of Bill C-295 being debated in the House of Commons for a second hour, but the bill would be declared non-votable. Or she can advise the Speaker, in writing, within five days of the adoption of this report, that she wishes to have Bill C-295 withdrawn and the order of second reading discharged, and that she will be given 20 sitting days from the adoption of this report to specify another item of private members' business. Notwithstanding any other Standing Order, such item will be immediately placed at the bottom of the order of precedence and such item will be entitled to two hours of debate and shall be votable and subject to the application of Standing Orders 86 to 89.

In essence, we're giving her a choice of remedy from doing nothing and debating her bill, doing nothing and dropping her bill, or putting another bill forward and hoping that we can amend the Standing Orders at a future committee meeting to make sure that this does not happen again. That's the second report of the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Preston.

Are there any questions for Mr. Preston at this time?

Is it the wish of the committee that we accept this report?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much, members.

Now we will go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]