Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Well, no, but then you need to have ability to have the statutory declaration sworn in front of a commissioner, or a group like yours, at every poll. Now we're adding another element of identification to the election system.

Is your suggestion that we go that far, that because people may be disenfranchised by not carrying their identification, we set this up at every polling station? I don't see that being plausible either.

[Jim Quail]

No, I think what we've suggested is that along with simply adding to the legislation and the list of acceptable forms of identification, one of them be a statutory declaration on the prescribed form. As I said earlier, no identification is perfect, but because of the criminal sanction that flows from making a false statement, it's actually a much more compelling guarantor than an awful lot of identification that people might otherwise have.

[Murray Mollard]

I would just add, if I could, that I understand your goal to prevent fraud, but you have to look at the enforcement angle as well, which Jim refers to, that it's very serious, for example, to lie on a statutory declaration or to commit fraud. And there needs to be—

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

It's been very serious throughout the whole Elections Act if you do that.

[Murray Mollard]

If I may just finish, if there's a concern that the enforcement arm of the Chief Electoral Officer and the commissioner under the Elections Act are not doing their job, then I would suggest this committee should be looking at that as well. We've dealt with cases in which people are being prosecuted for eating their ballots as a sign of political protest, so there does seem to be some appetite for prosecution--no pun intended.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I'm just going to finish up Mr. Preston's time. He's been generous enough to give it to me.

I was just looking at the proposed amendments to the act. One of the things that is said, in proposed paragraph 143(2)(b), is that you can have “two pieces of identification establishing the elector's name and address that are authorized by the Chief Electoral Officer”. My understanding is that statutory declaration could actually be one of those pieces; there's nothing to prevent the Chief Electoral Officer from recognizing that.

If I were Chief Electoral Officer, I think I'd want to say that it has to be sworn out in a certain form, and I'd probably want to have that included as a schedule, or something like that. But if you see what I'm getting at, I think that perhaps the idea might actually be partially covered in the act right now.

I think, Mr. Quail, you suggested that.

Am I reading the act incorrectly when I say that?

[Murray Mollard]

Let me just answer this. My proposal, anyway, is that the act be amended so that there's a paragraph (c) that says that a statutory declaration in the prescribed form would be an adequate piece of ID in and of itself. I think a statutory declaration, as one of two pieces of ID, is not going to solve this problem at all.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

With respect to the prescribed form, very quickly, I think the sanction against a person swearing out the form is less of an impediment than the sanction against someone swearing out the form on behalf of voters. I think that's the real sanction that would prevent voter fraud.

The question I have is this. What kind of prescription could be put into the form that would ensure that as you or someone like Ms. Bradford, who is working on behalf of those who don't have other ways of establishing their identities, do this you can carry out your job while at the same time ensuring that other people can't come along and start doing the same sort of thing in a manner that is designed to allow people to vote multiple times in multiple polls, and that sort of thing? In other words, what would allow you to do your job, which I think is very good for the community, and not allow that process to start being abused?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I'm going to have to ask for a very short answer on that one. We're well over, but I will allow a very short answer, please.

[Murray Mollard]

Tina might not quite understand the question.

If I understood it, though, in taking a statutory declaration, there are certain legal obligations that commissioners for taking oaths have, and I think she's described them to some extent. Maybe she'd like to describe them again. You have to make some efforts to identify the person, and I think that's part of the requirement that any commissioner for taking oaths has to undertake.

It's put in the context of dealing with people who don't have a driver's licence. I mean, if I take an affidavit, I must require some ID, and a driver's licence would do it. These are people who don't have that, so you have to adjust that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much. Again, I'm sorry.

[Jim Quail]

I have a brief suggestion, if I can.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I will allow a brief suggestion.

[Jim Quail]

That would be an endorsement for the person taking the declaration to simply describe the inquiries they undertook.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Okay. Thank you very much.

If the witnesses have anything further to add to that, we invite you to write it down and send it to the clerk.

Madame Picard, please.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Voting is a major responsibility. While you were making your opening statements, I was trying to see what the solutions might be. And the form that you have provided is excellent. I'm sure you've heard of the Maison du Père or Accueil Bonneau in Montreal, which are facilities used by the homeless. People who've been working in these places for years can identify them. What do you think of that idea?

On the statutory declaration, there could be one line where someone who works for one of these facilities could sign his or her name to prove that the person is who he says he is. We could also ask the Chief Electoral Officer to set up mobile polling stations in the main centres or facilities that are used by the homeless. Although those terms could be confusing, it seems to me that would be the best way of eliminating any possible doubt, or the possibility of fraud. The homeless would have a place they know and could go to in order to be identified and vote.

[Tina Marie Bradford]

That's a very good idea, and we have informally adopted that already. What I have my lawyers do is keep a listing of each person they've sworn the statutory declaration for and how they were able to confirm that this person is who they say they are. So they would keep track of what ID they did see from the person, or they would write down who it was that vouched for this person. Then I collect them at the end of the election and I have those available in case someone makes a complaint to the Law Society or in case Elections Canada has questions.

So what you're suggesting is a more formalized process of what we're already doing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Monsieur Malo, do you want to add something? We still have time.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you.

You said that in the last two federal elections, you accompanied people without ID who had come to vote.

I'd like to know in what percentage of cases they asked for your help and to what extent you had to encourage people in the street to take part in the electoral process.

[Tina Marie Bradford]

I would have to say it's about fifty-fifty. We set up tables in high pedestrian areas, put up signs, and sometimes say, “Hey guys, can we give you a hand with voting?” A lot of people are attracted to anything happening on the street, and they will ask us what we're doing. We explain to them that we're helping people with the voting process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Going back to what Madame Picard was talking about, they do the declaration sheet and vouch for the person and all that. You have somebody who knows him and vouches for him too, which I think is very interesting, because when he goes to vote they take it away from him and he cannot go to another place.

We want to raise those questions. I don't want it to come out later that we didn't get your reaction. One person asked what's stopping them from being vouched for by another lawyer someplace else, having two pieces of paper, and going to two different places?

[Tina Marie Bradford]

I guess if someone were really committed to voting twice, they could come to one of our stations and then drive to another riding to try to find someone else to do it for them. To be quite honest, the majority of the people we're helping in the downtown eastside are too busy looking for their next meal and trying to find a place to sleep.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

The problem we have is not with the homeless; it's probably with other people who do it. We're going to punish the homeless by doing it. That's my worry.

[Tina Marie Bradford]

Other people who have more resources won't have to rely on a statutory declaration. They're going to be able to create identification for themselves that will be acceptable in a poll. They'll have access to utility bills and things like that. The more resources a person has available to them, they're going to be able to commit fraud if they want to. To be quite honest, creating a second identification requirement isn't going to stop those few individuals.