Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 24th, 2007

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

We recognize that we're not likely to change it this year, but at some point there might be a recommended change of some sort in the process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We have two more people on the list.

My apologies if I've stirred up a bit of a nest here.

Mr. Owen, you are up, and then Monsieur Godin.

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you.

I have just an observation in passing, Mr. Chair and Mr. Speaker. The discrepancies in cost of living that affect MPs' staff also are reflected in MPs, themselves, should one be so unlucky as to live in Vancouver or Toronto. But there are compensating benefits as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Reid is next, and then Monsieur Godin.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

With relation to the subject of offices, we've been discussing constituency office rents, but I'm thinking here of the offices in the West Block that at some point, presumably, will be subject to being emptied out and put into another building so the building can be renovated. Every time I go past the building, I see further evidence that it is a matter of increasing urgency.

One of the options that had occurred to me, and I just want to suggest it, is when moving out of that building, I wonder if it would make more sense and be less expensive to rent office space somewhere in the downtown area of Ottawa, as opposed to trying to build up and refurbish one of our own buildings to accommodate people during that period. I gather that would be a very expensive undertaking, that is, refurbishing one of the buildings currently in the parliamentary precinct, say, La Promenade Building.

It occurs to me that a considerable amount of money could be saved if we were to look at the option of renting office space during that period. I gather from the fact that embassies use office spaces that these areas can be made secure. We have security considerations as well, but I assume that can be done.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

It's a good question.

I understand that some investigation was done of the possibility of doing that when we made a decision, whether the board or public works--I don't know who made the decision--and agreed with a recommendation that a building would be refurbished and that members would move into that building, in part because of its proximity to the Hill. No members want to work far away.

Part of the difficulty in finding accommodation within a block of the Hill.... It is a problem. And we have it relatively close by in buildings that are currently under our control or under the control of the Department of Public Works. That's why we're going with that option. Members will not be farther away than Sparks Street and will be able to get back and forth to work readily.

The decision to go south of Wellington was one that generated considerable controversy, to my recollection. But it is so close that they felt it was safe because members could get from there to the West Block, for example, more quickly than they could from the Justice Building, and originally similarly to the Centre Block, even on foot.

We're optimistic that the whips aren't going to be overly upset if some of their members are that far away when others are not, and that was part of the rationale for the decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Monsieur Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

It's true that members of Parliament really have to be close to Parliament in case of votes or for committee meetings. In 1997, I worked in the Wellington Building, and I really liked it, because I was just as close as if I had had an office in the West Block. I don't think you will contradict me on that point. Some members of Parliament may not want to work in that building, but it's my responsibility.

In terms of the budget, that is where there are differences of opinion. When we talk about budgets, some people say it's more expensive for people living in cities, like Toronto and Vancouver, for example. On the other hand, MPs who live in rural areas have to drive hundreds and hundreds of kilometers. That ends up costing almost as much money.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I did not refer to that, but travel within the riding is a good argument. That is quite a different matter and I did not mention it; however, there are a number of different factors that affect each of our budgets and that have to do with the diversity of our country. For others, it's a problem. At least there is a supplementary budget for larger ridings—in Nunavut, for example. It may not be enough, but…

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

My apologies.

Is that the end of your round, Mr. Godin?

My apologies for being distracted there.

Colleagues, I think that our round of questioning on the estimates is over.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You didn't hear what I said?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I heard everything you said, and I'll read it again tonight when I get the minutes.

I would like to thank you, Mr. Speaker; I appreciate your coming out again. And Audrey, thank you very much.

We're going to try to deal with this. You are dismissed, but we're going to try to deal with this very quickly.

Madam Redman, did you have a comment?

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I actually have a little, tiny question, if I could.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Absolutely.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I will try to be very brief. This is estimates writ broadly here.

In your role as the Speaker, and pursuing your authority within the House, can you clarify for us the jurisdiction and authority you have over the House and over committees and the conduct of members of Parliament? I'm just anticipating a subject that we may deal with later in this meeting.

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Conduct outside the House--nothing.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Would that include committees, just for clarification?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Yes, effectively. The committees are masters of their own procedures, as you know. I've ruled on that many times.

The one place where I think I have had something to say about what a committee has done is when the committee has come back to the House with a bill that had amendments in it that were beyond the scope of the bill, and I've chucked the amendments. That, I believe, has happened recently.

Beyond that, the events and so on that transpire within committees are really matters for the committees. They can make a report to the House and ask the House to make an adjudication, but unless there's a report from the committee, the House has nothing to say about what happens there, and the Speaker certainly does not.

My jurisdiction, really, is dealing with members and their behaviour in the House, if you want to take it in those words that you were using in your question. It doesn't extend beyond that--unless it has something to do with their budgets, and then I suppose there might be some complaint that could come to me from that source, but it would really be directed to me as chairman of the Board of Internal Economy, and the board would likely deal with it, not just me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

I would just ask another question. We seem to be deviating from the estimates a little bit, so my apologies. But since we are deviating, coming back to Mr. Reid's point and then Mr. Speaker's comment about using Wellington Building, which is obviously outside the geographical precinct, what is the process for the Speaker to extend parliamentary privilege to a building that is outside the physical precinct with respect to members' privilege? Is it simply an order that you would make, Mr. Speaker, or is there a process?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

The precinct is only the buildings; we don't actually control the lawn. You step outside this building and you're out of the precinct. It's something I have urged change in for some time, but so far without success. So a building occupied by Parliament is part of the precinct, and I believe the Wellington Building is part of the precinct; it certainly was when we had members' offices there, and it still has a lot of members' support services there and committees occasionally meet over there. In my view, it's part of the precinct, within the building.

It's outside that's the difficulty. We don't have control of the lawns between the East Block and the West Block, or between Centre Block and either one of them, either. The building itself is the precinct; beyond it we don't have....

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Reid, did you want to follow up?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Yes. Further to our chair's question, though, how does one go about changing that?

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I think it would take a law, a little act of Parliament, to declare whether the precinct were extended to the fence, which is something I think would be worth considering. The board is working on this at the moment, and I'm optimistic that we'll come up with a solution before long, because I believe we have cooperation from the Senate in this respect as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Reid, are you comfortable?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

We know the lawn is out, but what about the parking area?