Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 24th, 2007

[Peter Milliken, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

That's out too. Everything outside the building is out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, I believe we have finished this review of the main estimates from the Speaker of the House. I will simply try to deal with this matter at this point.

Does vote 5 under Parliament, less the amount voted in interim supply, carry?

PARLIAMENT

House of Commons

Vote 5--Program expenditures..........$263,640,000

(Vote 5 agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Should I report the main estimates to the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I would like to thank our witnesses today and their team for coming. We appreciate that.

We will go in camera to deal with the draft report.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[Public proceedings resume]

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, we're going to reconvene the meeting.

I just want to remind members that we are in public, and the business before us right now is a motion in the name of Mr. Preston. I will just remind members that this motion--if Mr. Preston is going to move the motion, and I suspect he is--is debatable and amendable. There is no time limit on the debate. However, if we can get through this, then we can discuss future business.

Mr. Preston, would you kindly go ahead, please?

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

The motion has been distributed, so I won't really go through it. Some of the questions we had of the Speaker today pertain to what the motion is about, and that is who has the ability to look at committees and what truly happens in committees.

We certainly have had cases in the past, and I guess over time, looking backwards, I have some rulings even from Speaker Fraser of confidentiality breaches by committees. It's just that it is truly inappropriate conduct, and at least it can't go unnoticed. I'm not standing here to be an accuser. I'm looking for a remedy here, if we can find one, to this situation, and my motion looks to this committee to at least discuss this subject and see if we can come up with a solution.

The Speaker says it's not in his orders to do so, so I guess it's up to this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, we can open for a bit of discussion on this. I will tell you that I've read the motion. I do rule it in order. This committee did study an issue similar to this in the 36th Parliament. The issue falls within the committee's mandate. So if the committee agrees to the motion, it simply means that we'll put it on our agenda to do a study on it, which could include bringing witnesses and preparing reports and so on and so forth.

Are there any discussions on the motion before us?

Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Just briefly, Mr. Chair, I would say I support it. We don't have to deal with this now, but yes, Mr. Preston has indicated that in years past probably there have been culprits from all parties who from time to time have perhaps purposefully or inadvertently released confidential documents to parties who were not supposed to be in possession of them.

So I think it would be prudent of this committee to set some time aside for this as an agenda item to discuss it, if for no other reason than that it would bring once again to the attention of all members that when you're in committee and dealing with confidential subjects, you must be very conscious about how you treat those matters. And if there are sanctions that are ultimately approved by this committee or at least recommended to be brought forward by this committee, I think it wouldn't hurt to remind members of the oath of confidentiality that we all took when we became members of Parliament.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Madam Redman, please.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would agree. I think this is an egregious insult to everybody on the committee, but I would have to tell you--and I'm happy to take my part in this debate--it's always the crux of proving who the leak is, and it becomes a bit of a witch hunt.

I've been in places where you signed your document and handed it back in, and I understand all of this, but it seems to me that the hardest piece of all of this is actually proving who leaked it. So I'm happy to have the discussion. I think it's an insult to colleagues when this happens. I do believe that probably over the course of history there's not been a party that hasn't been the victim or the perpetrator of this, but I think the real crux of it is that it's very difficult to prove. So we can talk about sanctions--and it is an important issue--but I don't know that we're going to resolve anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Okay.

Monsieur Guimond.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

I'll be brief, Mr. Chairman. I agree with the comments made by my colleague, Ms. Redman. This is not something that is easy to prove. And we certainly cannot be against the motion before us, as currently worded. I am inclined to vote in favour of the motion, but I am also inclined to say that it will be difficult to enforce. It is rare for a member of Parliament who has leaked a confidential report to hold a press conference to brag about it. In any case, if someone has done that in the past, I would like to know about it. I would like our researcher to go as far back as 1867 to try and determine whether there is any precedent in that regard. I think we should assign that task to him. He should begin immediately, without even taking the time to have lunch. He has to find a member of Parliament who bragged about…

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We'll certainly instruct him forthwith.

Thank you very much.

Are there any further comments on the motion, or can I deem the motion adopted such that we refer it to the steering committee to get an agenda set, a timing set?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

You said there was something similar in 1996. Maybe you could get that information, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We can certainly do that. I'm deeming that the committee will look at this and we'll get all of that information.

My question to the analyst here is whether we refer this to the steering committee for placement on our agenda, and decisions to be made regarding witnesses and whatever.

(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Okay, that deals with the motion, colleagues. Thank you very much.

I just want to point out future business. We can stay in public for this. We have nothing now on the schedule for Thursday, April 26. The committee itself will therefore not meet on Thursday; however, there may be a meeting on the code of conflict issue.

On Tuesday, May 1, the Clerk of the House will be joining us to discuss the issues of in camera proceedings, and committees continuing to sit during the division bells. Briefing notes will be sent around by our research staff.

Is there any other business this morning? Seeing none, the meeting is adjourned.

Thank you.