Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 18th, 2007

[Marc Chénier]

I will provide an explanation, Mr. Chair, on how the bill is structured.

Right now different types of entities are able to make a loan to a political entity. These include individuals who can make contributions, financial institutions, and other political entities. So those are the three groups that are able to make a loan.

As for loans to individuals, we have seen this in amendment CPC-2, that the amount that remains unpaid during the year in which the loan was made is a contribution for the purposes of the contribution limits. So those are already counted in the year that they were made as a contribution for the purposes of the contribution limits.

Right now in the act different entities have to pay back their claims within different periods of time. Candidates have to do so within four months, leadership contestants within 18 months at the end of the contest, parties and registered associations according to the terms they negotiate with their lender.

The difficulty with having a three-year repayment for a loan, for Elections Canada purposes, is that campaign candidates who are deemed to be candidates for the purpose of the act will continue to need to have dealings with Elections Canada. You can have over 1,000 candidates being candidates, according to Elections Canada, for three years. I can foresee Elections Canada having difficulty with administering so many candidates for a long period of time. That's why there's an end clause that is very short right now—four months after the election. Extending it to three years might cause administrative problems for Elections Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Madam Redman, please.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

This accounting is going to have to be made, whether it's four months or three years, so is it your assumption there would have to be interim reporting or something done on an annual basis? Can you flesh out for me why this would be more onerous for Elections Canada?

[Marc Chénier]

Again, there are different roles for the different types of entities. Let's just take candidates, for example. Right now, they have to report within four months after the election. They also have to have paid out claims within that period of time. If they haven't and the Chief Electoral Officer has allowed an exception—and there are various reasons why this can be done—then they have to update a return every time something happens to that return. If they make a payment on the outstanding amount, they have to report that to Elections Canada. This very obviously extends the period of time for which candidates and nomination contestants will have to have dealings with Elections Canada to wrap up their campaigns.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Just to follow that up, if I were making monthly payments, Elections Canada would get a report from my financial person or me as a candidate every month of that three years until it was paid off?

[Marc Chénier]

Every time something changes from the time a report is filed, they have to report to Elections Canada within 30 days what the change has been.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

And that's part of the Canada Elections Act?

[Marc Chénier]

That's part of the Elections Act, that's right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I think that's a good point.

That issue of updating within 30 days is not part of this bill; it's part of the Canada Elections Act. It seems quite onerous to be making out reports every month. I agree with Madam Redman.

Colleagues, I would point out—and Mr. Dewar could probably clarify this—this amendment actually is dealing with two things. If you'll notice, it's changing the 18-month timeframe to three years. It's also changing from the establishment of a loan to polling days as the beginning in the calculation, so everyone—

Am I correct on that, Mr. Dewar?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's correct.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Could we have further comments and questions, please?

Mr. McDougall.

[Dan McDougall]

There may indeed be a problem with the last point that you pointed out in terms of polling day. A polling day is not applicable in all situations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Could you explain that again?

[Dan McDougall]

For a leadership contest, for example, there is no polling day per se. For loans that were made pursuant to a leadership contest, there wouldn't be a time period that would come into force with this provision as it is. It would require some other amendments to make this actually do what it's purporting to do.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

On that point, Chair, if it's something that had been asked for by Elections Canada—and of course their focus is polling day—then yes, they are aware of leadership contests. That's the reason for that. You're quite right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I'm not at liberty to do this as chair, but I'm looking for a subamendment to fix that one little hole. While I mention to everyone in the room that lunch is here—we're going to talk and eat at the same time—I am looking for some wordsmithing here as a subamendment to fix this.

Mr. Owen, go ahead, please.

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Mr. Chair, this will apply to a future one, a subsequent one of ours, as well, changing it to polling day.

On polling day or at the end of a leadership or a nomination contest is the situation we're trying to.... Maybe we can get some comment from our officials as to whether that would cover the concern.

[Marc Chénier]

Currently, what the act says is that it's within polling day for a candidate. It's within the selection date for a nomination contest unless it occurred within three months—or during an election period, in which case it's four months—after polling day. It's 18 months from the end of a leadership contest. For registered parties or registered associations, it's within the negotiated terms of the loan.

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'm a bit concerned and a bit confused as to why Elections Canada have recommended this amendment in this form. Perhaps we could have a subamendment that incorporated something like the end of the polling date or the end of the contest.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, before I move to Mr. Preston, I would like to suggest to our witnesses that we are looking for wording to capture the leadership contest, the nomination of contestants. I think we all understand the intent of this amendment; we just need the wording that captures every part of this bill.

I am going to ask Mr. Preston first—he had his hand up—and then we'll go back to our witnesses and anybody else.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

After hearing what we're attempting to accomplish here, I think the wording is easy: it's “no”.

I think the answer is that what we're trying to accomplish doesn't need to be accomplished. If we just leave it where it is, we'll be in fine shape. We won't have to wordsmith any further. I'm not certain what we're trying to accomplish here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Are there any comments from the witnesses?

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Look at all the compelling arguments I'm getting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

We have kind of come around the table here. I'm not going to push this thing until I see that everybody seems to understand what's happening.

We have a motion on the floor that doesn't seem to capture fully what we want to do. Mr. Preston has suggested that actually just voting against the motion leads us back to the original wording, which might capture it.

I'm going to ask colleagues to take 30 seconds or a minute to look at those two suggestions.

Mr. Owen, please.

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I believe my subamendment was to add, after “polling day”, the words “or after the end of a political contest”.