Evidence of meeting #9 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Eric Hébert  Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party
Martin Carpentier  Director, Bloc Québécois
Gilbert Gardner  General Director, Bloc Québécois
Steven MacKinnon  National Director, Liberal Party of Canada
Michael D. Donison  Executive Director, Conservative Party of Canada
Paul Lepsoe  Legal Counsel, Conservative Fund of Canada, Conservative Party of Canada
Jess Turk-Browne  Assistant Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

I call the meeting to order.

Ladies and gentlemen, I would remind members that this meeting is in public today. The purpose of the meeting is to continue the committee's review of the Canada Elections Act.

I should probably let the witnesses who are here today know briefly what the committee has been doing so far. There have been a number of reports in the past that have made recommendations on how to improve the Canada Elections Act. We have had Mr. Kingsley as a witness as well. The committee has taken a considerable amount of time reviewing almost every recommendation we've read, and now we have invited all the parties in Canada to submit reports. Indeed, the four main parties have been asked to appear before the committee as witnesses.

If representatives from each of the four parties want to take their seats at the back, that would be very helpful. We will try to focus our comments today on how to decrease the fraud and decrease the mistakes within the electoral process in Canada, as well as improve the accuracy of the elections lists.

First, I would like to thank each and every one of you for coming today. I know that sometimes we don't get the opportunity for a whole bunch of notice, but we do know that you guys and gals have been very diligent in getting your ideas together. Indeed, some of these ideas, I understand, have been coming along for years.

The first thing I would like to do is take a minute or two for you to introduce yourselves. Once we've had the chance for all the committee to be introduced to you, we will start the process.

11:10 a.m.

Eric Hébert Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

My name is Éric Hébert, and I'm from the New Democratic Party.

11:10 a.m.

Martin Carpentier Director, Bloc Québécois

My name is Martin Carpentier, and I'm from the Bloc québécois.

11:10 a.m.

Gilbert Gardner General Director, Bloc Québécois

My name is Gilbert Gardener, and I'm from the Bloc québécois.

11:10 a.m.

Steven MacKinnon National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

My name is Steven MacKinnon, and I'm from the Liberal Party of Canada.

11:10 a.m.

Michael D. Donison Executive Director, Conservative Party of Canada

Mike Donison, executive director of the Conservative Party of Canada.

11:10 a.m.

Paul Lepsoe Legal Counsel, Conservative Fund of Canada, Conservative Party of Canada

My name is Paul Lepsoe, and I'm legal counsel with the Conservative Party.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Welcome, and thank you very much for coming.

I think the process I will follow right now is to give each party five minutes. I regret that I will try to hold you to five minutes. Ultimately, we have a very tight meeting. If there are points that you are not able to get across in your five minutes, there will be opportunity as the meeting carries on to get those points across.

I will start with the Conservative Party of Canada. You have five minutes, and welcome.

Could you introduce yourself? Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Jess Turk-Browne Assistant Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

Jess Turk-Browne from the NDP.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you very much.

Mr. Donison, please.

11:10 a.m.

Executive Director, Conservative Party of Canada

Michael D. Donison

Merci, monsieur le président. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, for the opportunity for the political parties represented in the House of Commons to address your committee this morning.

You've given each party five minutes, Mr. Chair. I'm just going to make a couple of remarks, and then I want Mr. Lepsoe, who is legal counsel to the party, to make a couple of remarks. I'm a lawyer by training as well, so to get two lawyers to combine in five minutes, Mr. Chair, I think is something we should report in The Hill Times.

Basically, I focused on going through Mr. Kingsley's report Completing the Cycle of Electoral Reforms, which was tabled in the last Parliament on September 29. Of course, there are an awful lot of recommendations, and I want to mention just a few that I commend to this committee and to this Parliament.

First, from an administrative side--and this has now been adopted in the province of British Columbia--I really like the idea of nominations before the writ. The writ is called and everyone is scrambling around to find the 100 names. I'm sure Mr. MacKinnon and all the parties have this problem of how they are going to get all 308 candidates nominated by the deadline. So once a candidate has received his party's nomination, I really commend the idea of allowing political parties to be able to file with Elections Canada and having all that paperwork done even before the writ is dropped. I strongly recommend that, and I know that's been Mr. Kingsley's recommendation.

There are a couple of others that I think are very useful. One of the areas where we are finding a great deal of growth is with the use of the special ballot. I think part of the whole purpose of the Canada Elections Act is to make sure--and there are the issues of fraud that you've dealt with--that we maximize the opportunity for legitimate voters, in this busy society of ours, to be able to cast a ballot and not be restricted simply to the advance polls or polling day. So the special ballot I think is something that's working very, very well.

My suggestion would be--and we can get into the details later--that the special ballot be expanded so that any eligible Canadian should be able to attend at the office of any returning officer anywhere in Canada, apply for the special ballot, and cast the ballot right there, rather than necessarily having to mail it back it back to Ottawa. I've raised that already with Mr. Kingsley.

I think the idea of the removal of the five-year limitation for out-of-country voters is very fundamental. If you're a Canadian citizen and you're living abroad for more than five years, you should also be able to cast your ballot. Mr. Kingsley has recommended that, and I would commend that to the committee as well.

The other area, of course, and one I gather you have had a lot of discussion about, is this whole issue of identification at the polling place. Again, I'm not getting into a lot of details about that, but I think everybody agrees that this absolutely has to be tightened up. If you combine that with the problems of the permanent voters list.... For instance, I notice that Mr. Kingsley, in his most recent report on the 39th general election, stated that there were 3.5 million changes to the voters list between the issuance of the preliminary voters list and the final list. That in itself says something about the accuracy of the list.

Those are the key things I think the committee should be focusing on: ID, quality of the list, and the pre-nomination process.

I'm going to ask Mr. Lepsoe to speak for a few moments, if you'll allow him, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Absolutely, there are two minutes left.

Please.

11:15 a.m.

Legal Counsel, Conservative Fund of Canada, Conservative Party of Canada

Paul Lepsoe

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to add a minor point that doesn't have anything to do with the report of the Chief Electoral Officer. Mr. Kingsley referred to allowances for auditors.

I've distributed a small package that refers to a provision in the Manitoba act, which I'd like to refer for your consideration. When I appeared on Bill C-24, which I guess was three years ago now, having acted as legal counsel to a party for a long time, I was very concerned about the new compliance burdens that would be placed for the first time on riding associations, nomination contestants, and leadership contestants, as well as new burdens on parties and so on. I made a reference at that time to the Manitoba provision, and I'd just like to take another stab at it.

The Bill C-24 process was very compressed. Maybe with a bit more leisure, this committee could have a look at this Manitoba provision, which essentially excludes, as a contribution, the services of someone acting, and it says on page 2, “as an auditor, financial agent, official agent or legal counsel”. On page 3 is a possible amendment to the Canada Elections Act along the lines of Manitoba. I just put that out there for your consideration. Compliance is an issue, and I think we see that increasingly under the legislation. There is such a great need now for financial accounting under Bill C-24.

This might be something the committee might want to look at. If people who are incorporated or giving more than $1,000 are willing to help out a riding association on these financial compliances, should it really be deemed to be an illegal contribution? I just put that forward for your consideration.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you very much. We won't have to call The Hill Times in, because that was 20 seconds over.

Mr. MacKinnon.

11:15 a.m.

National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

Steven MacKinnon

I think this is perhaps a moment of rare agreement between myself and my friends from the Conservative Party. I could short-circuit my entire presentation by saying I essentially agree--although without prejudice to reviewing my friend's amendment--with everything they've just said.

I do have prepared remarks. With your indulgence and that of the committee, I'm going to try my best to get through it, and if you deem that I'm going on too long, then I'm in your hands, Mr. Chair. But I can undertake to provide the entirety of these remarks to the committee.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, committee members,

thank you for this opportunity to speak on observations our party has on the state of the Canada Elections Act and its administration.

As the national director of the Liberal Party of Canada, I had the opportunity to hear comments from all corners of Canada, both favourable and critical, reflecting the experiences of Liberals on the campaign trail and their dealings with Elections Canada before, during, and after the election period.

Despite the fact that these remarks will necessarily put the emphasis on the points on which we've noted deficiencies in the electoral process, I must take a few moments to mention that, in general, this way of doing things in fact works.

Thousands of Canadians who work for Elections Canada, whether it be for a few months or even a single day, and also all those who work for the organization on a full-time basis are people who render an invaluable service to the entire Canadian population with regard to the preservation and maintenance of our democracy. Most of them do a remarkable job. The country owes them all a big thank you.

With the greatest of respect to the best efforts of so many, there are nevertheless failings in the system, some profound, some merely frustrating. I would like, in the short time available to me, to highlight just a few of these and to encourage you to consider the need for amendments to the Canada Elections Act.

The first topic I would like to discuss is the registration process. Perhaps our single greatest concern, if not a source of outright alarm, is the registration process. As several of this committee's members know from their own experiences, the provision of a valid residential address is not something that Elections Canada seems to put much weight on. We have experienced voters registered as living in supermarkets, U-Store-It facilities, business office towers, non-existent addresses, and a university bookstore.

The problem here is twofold. In our view, Elections Canada places little or no emphasis upon verifying or validating residential addresses contained in the register of electors. The Chief Electoral Officer often points out that lack of resources is never an issue for his office. With respect, the resources may well be there, but the will is not.

In one particular electoral district where problems of this nature were identified by us in extreme proportions, Trinity--Spadina, such concerns arising from the 2004 election went unaddressed in the 2006 election--

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC

Mr. Chairman, he is speaking so quickly that the interpreter has to speak quickly. It makes no sense for me in French.

11:20 a.m.

National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

Steven MacKinnon

I gave the interpreters the French version of my remarks. I'll be pleased to give it to all committee members.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Is that acceptable, Pauline? We'll distribute a list and you can read along.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Pauline Picard Bloc Drummond, QC

You have it in both languages?

11:20 a.m.

National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

Steven MacKinnon

I have a reading copy here.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Are you telling me it's impossible for you to slow down?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Order. Could we speak through the chair, please? Thank you.

I will give you your two minutes to start over. We will distribute the French copies.

11:20 a.m.

National Director, Liberal Party of Canada

Steven MacKinnon

Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to give all my presentation in the time allotted to me.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

We don't have copies for everyone else, which is part of the deal that we have made, that copies would be distributed to all members of the committee in both official languages.

I regret that this report is not in both official languages. I'm going to move to question period for Mr. MacKinnon and cut the discussion off.

Did you have a comment, Mr. Hill?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

My understanding is that he does have it in both official languages, but it hasn't been distributed to individual members.