Evidence of meeting #14 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.
A recording is available from Parliament.
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An hon. member
[Inaudible--Editor]
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Conservative
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Conservative
Joe Preston Conservative Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON
Some respect should be shown for Mr. Lukiwski's dissertation.
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Conservative
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Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Chair, although these members clearly are under instructions from their leadership not to allow this motion to pass, and I can appreciate that, I can appreciate where the--
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An hon. member
[Inaudible--Editor]
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Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Chair, I think if we were able to have quite an honest discussion on this issue at committee, it would certainly change not only the content but also the spirit of this discussion.
Let me go back again to defining and putting into context the accusations that have been levelled against the Conservative Party.
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An hon. member
[Inaudible--Editor]
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Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Order, please.
I know there's going to be some noise being made here while we bring in lunch. I'm tempted to suspend for two minutes while we do that. I sure as heck wouldn't want to be chastised for being compassionate, so let's see if we can keep the noise down and maybe we won't have to do that. Heaven forbid that we allow folks to take care of their biological needs. Heaven forbid we show that type of compassion.
Mr. Lukiwski, please.
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Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Again, Chair, let's frame this argument that the opposition members have. Let's see if we can actually, in as simple terms as possible, put the accusations that are being levelled against the Conservative Party into terms that we can all understand, and then examine whether or not those allegations have any basis in truth.
Chair, here's the accusation the opposition is making--that the Conservative Party of Canada transferred $1.2 million to 67 candidates who weren't going to spend up to the limit. Those candidates then either made a group or regional buy, depending on your definition, and paid the party to produce advertising, which was national in scope. We don't deny that. The point of contention is that the Liberals claim that this is a violation of the Elections Act. In other words, they're saying they believe that if a national party transfers money to individual candidates who then spend that money on national ads, or ads promoting the national party, this is a violation. That is the position of the Liberal Party.
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Liberal
Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Just for the record, it was Elections Canada that made that assertion and that determination, not the Liberal Party of Canada.
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Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Okay.
Points of order usually clarify how a proceeding should take place, not offer debate.
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Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
We could certainly add that, because you are on the speaker's list, Ms. Redman. I'll remind you of that order when we come to you.
Mr. Lukiwski, please.
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Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Let me point out to my honourable colleagues that this is a--
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Conservative
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Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
It's on the proceedings. You just mentioned the witness list. Could you give us the names that are on the witness list?
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Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
You are welcome to ask the clerk for that any time.
Mr. Lukiwski, please.
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Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
In response to my honourable colleague's point of order, what I just stated is the position of the Liberal Party. If they wish to change their position, well, they've done that on many other issues, perhaps they can do it on this issue as well, but as far as I understand now, that is the position of the Liberal Party.
Secondly, I would point out to my honourable colleague that this is not the claim, as she suggests, from Elections Canada. Let's make sure my honourable colleague has her facts straight when she makes interventions. There is an investigation going on, but they have not said that this transfer of money to local candidates to use in national ads is a violation of the act. They have never said that, but the Liberals have, Chair.
Unfortunately, because of the ongoing investigation, the 67 candidates in question have not yet been paid or been reimbursed the money they would normally be reimbursed. This was one of the primary reasons we decided to engage in a legal proceeding because our position is that there was nothing improper about the way in which either the national party, the national campaign, or the local candidates conducted themselves.
But since the Liberals do claim that this transfer, which they call the in-and-out scheme, was a violation of the act--that is their position, that is what they are alleging--let's take a look at some of the things the Liberals have done. One would suggest that if the Liberals' position is to claim a violation of the act for doing this type of transaction, then they would never have done anything like this themselves, because then they themselves, by their own contention, would have violated the Elections Act.
Let's take a look and see if they did anything of this sort. Well, it appears that they have. In a story that was published in the The Hill Times on December 3, it appears in the findings of this story, at least, that the Liberals do exactly the same thing. In New Brunswick, all 10 Liberal candidates participated in a group buy for advertising in The Telegraph-Journal of Saint John and L'Acadie Nouvelle on January 21, 2006.
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Liberal
Karen Redman Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
I understand that Mr. Lukiwski has a limited amount of material to cover, but I believe this is the second if not the third time he has given the same example.
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Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
No, I'm sorry. I am actually checking my own notes, and I'm being very careful that we don't mention the same members we mentioned the other day. I have that right here. In fact, I have all the members of the opposition parties with whom Mr. Lukiwski spoke written down, so I will be watching for repetition.
That's enough, please.