Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 12th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, let's bring the meeting to order. I apologize. I was waiting for another party to be represented at the meeting.

Just to bring everyone up to date, on Friday the clerk received a letter that was in order and completely legal. I believe everybody received the amended notice for today's meeting, that pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), a meeting has been requested by four—my understanding is it was actually six, but the minimum is four—members of the committee to discuss their request to consider the second report of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure.

So the purpose of today's meeting is to consider whether or not the committee wishes to take up consideration of the second report of the steering committee. The committee is not being convened to deliberate the second report, but to consider whether we wish to do that.

I need a motion to get that started. I wonder if Madam Redman will be kind enough to turn that phrase into a motion for me.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I move that this committee immediately proceed with the consideration of the second report of the subcommittee and complete that consideration before considering any other committee business.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

That sounds to me like the second report for the subcommittee, whereas the notice for this meeting was a request to consider the second report, and not actually consider the second report.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Then it should say “to proceed to the consideration of the second report”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Sorry, colleagues. There's a little confusion between the clerk and me. He has clarified that Madam Redman's motion is in order and has been moved. So let's debate it.

I'm looking for speakers on this motion. We have to move to go to that business because it isn't in the exact order.

All those in favour of considering the report--

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It is my intention to debate this. It would be out of order to subvert the process of allowing the committee to establish its own agenda by simply using this circuitous means--by saying we bring forward a motion intended for another purpose, under Standing Order 106(4), of calling a special meeting, and saying this also allows us to predetermine the agenda of not just this meeting but of the committee at all future meetings. That's out of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Is there another matter?

Mr. Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

On that point, I think it's very clear that this committee is the master of its home, and we just go ahead with our motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

That's fine.

We have motion—I think it is clear—by Madam Redman. It is perfectly okay. The motion has been moved from the floor. And it's also okay that other matters be considered at this meeting. This meeting was convened for one reason; however, Madam Redman put a motion on the floor that we now proceed to considering the second report of the steering committee. That's what we are now debating.

According to the clerk, we need to vote on whether we're going to move to that business.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Am I to understand you've ruled that Ms. Redman's motion is in order, and you will call the question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Correct. And I'm waiting for that.

Is there another point of order?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I'm not sure I understand what's going on here.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, according to my understanding of the rules—you've just made two rulings—if a member is not happy with that ruling, that member should challenge your ruling; otherwise there's no debate. You've made a ruling. You're moving the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

There really is no debate on my ruling. However, I don't want to start this meeting off in really bad way. So very briefly, I'm going to allow Mr. Reid, because I've allowed other members, to discuss this. We all know where we're going.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was actually on a point of order when Madam Jennings interrupted me on the theory that her points of order are more important than those of other members, I guess.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

You didn't say point of order.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I didn't have the chance, because you interrupted me.

My point of order was simply that I don't actually understand what the ruling is and what the question is you're calling.

Are you calling the question on Madam Redman's motion, or are you calling the question on whether to proceed to the motion that she has just proposed, as opposed to moving to what I think is--if you follow--a debatable question, which she's put forward? Separate from that, there is a question of whether or not the committee wants to move from the letter that caused us to come here to a specific way of putting the question that we will now debate. To me those are two separate things. I'm not sure which of the two you're actually proposing to us.

As a final note, I just want to remind you that just because Marlene Jennings says that you have to rule on things doesn't mean you actually have to rule on them. She doesn't actually make the rules in this House, much as she might want to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Okay. I see that as a point of clarification that's justified.

Here's how we started out the meeting. This meeting was called...and I'll read it exactly so members can understand:

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4) meeting requested by four...members of the Committee to discuss their request to consider the Second Report of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.

Herein, I believe, lies the confusion. I was hoping to get a motion for this so that we could discuss the request to consider. I think that's where Mr. Reid is probably confused. I asked Madam Redman to move that motion. Madam Redman moved a slightly different motion, which moves us one step further, and that is that we consider the second report of the subcommittee. That motion, which is slightly different from what I was expecting, is actually a superseding motion and actually is legal and allowed, and the question must be put.

So I think we're all understanding it the same way, but we're just on different levels.

Here we are right now, where Madam Redman has moved a motion that we go to discussing the second report now. That's a legal motion. It's superseding. It has to be answered now.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

On the same point of order here, Mr. Chair, I think I'm getting closer to understanding this. I think what you're saying here is essentially that a superseding motion can be put, and it's legal to put a superseding motion. That requires a vote as to whether the committee agrees to put the superseding motion, and then at that point, if the committee accepts it—which I think is the likely outcome of a vote—we then go to debating that motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

That is absolutely correct. I will remind members that this type of motion cannot be amended and cannot be debated.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I understand now. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Does everybody understand? I believe we've already put the question, but just for technicalities, I'll say that Madam Redman's motion is in order and I call the question.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, we will now move to debate on Madam Redman's motion, and Madam Redman has her hand up first. Madam Jennings will follow, and I think I saw--nobody's hand is up here clearly--all right, Mr. Reid.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Colleagues, we will try to keep things focused today and very civil, please.

Madam Redman.