Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 15th, 2007

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank you for your presentation, which was very informative, even if it did raise more questions than it answered.

You gave the example of the Ontario election, where a significant number of people used advance poll voting. Unfortunately, overall voter turnout remained essentially the same. We experienced exactly the same situation in Quebec in 2006. The advance poll vote led us to believe that we would register record turnout—especially as there were three parties in the race—but, at the end of the day, voter turnout was exactly the same as it had been in 2003.

As this is both a fairly costly and extremely complex bill—and I will come back to its complexity later—I cannot but wonder whether it would not be better to carry out the survey and studies before we enact legislation. For example, will there be a spillover effect? This question is particularly relevant given that we are talking about two consecutive days. Will people who would have gone to vote on Monday simply decide to go on a Sunday? At the end of the day, we could end up with the same level of voter turnout.

Were the spread of the advance days different, the impact could be very different. Imagine a scenario where you could not vote on the weekend because you had to be out of town for a few days. If you are not able to vote on the Sunday, you are not going to be able to vote on the Monday either. However, if the advance polling day were held on the previous weekend, or a few weeks earlier, it would open up other possibilities for arranging your schedule.

Would it be possible for Elections Canada to carry out a study to ensure... I have a copy of the study that you gave us and it seems very interesting. As Ms. Robillard said, nobody can be against a noble cause, but if the disadvantages outweigh the advantages... Allow me to quote from the study, it says:

[...] but that the correlations are not very robust. This suggests that all of these measures may have a positive impact on turnout, but that the effect is somewhat weak and uncertain.

I am no expert, but it would perhaps be preferable to commission Elections Canada to carry out more in-depth studies, particularly on voter behaviour, to ensure that we do not experience the same spillover effect that seems to have occurred in both the Quebec and the Ontario elections.

Would it be possible for the committee or the House to ask Elections Canada to carry out some studies before proceeding any further with our debate and the process of adopting the bill?

[Marc Mayrand]

You are correct in saying that voter turnout on advance polling days is not a great predictor of overall voter turnout. That is something which has been noted on a number of occasions.

Secondly, it is also difficult to say whether advance polling days allow voters who would not otherwise have voted to vote, or whether they simply result in those voters who would have voted anyway voting on a different day. It is very difficult to say with any certainty.

One of the problems is that we cannot really hold dry runs to try out different approaches. We simply have to implement them, either at a by-election or at the general election, and see whether they do actually bring about the desired effect.

Perhaps the committee would like to invite Mr. Blais to appear before you to explain his study and his methodology.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That would be a good idea.

I believe that you said earlier that, to the best of your knowledge, no other country offers two consecutive polling days.

[Marc Mayrand]

With the exception of Sweden, and I could not tell you off the top of my head what its voter turnout is.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

It must be important for a social democrat.

[Marc Mayrand]

I believe that Mr. Blais discusses it in his paper.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Your presentation raised issues that we ourselves have raised. I am sure you are aware that the political parties have concerns about the feasibility of the bill as it is currently drafted.

You spoke about the difficulty of recruiting electoral officers; we share your concerns, but you did not suggest any solution. You simply said that you are going to redouble your efforts. Do you, for example, plan to offer greater financial incentives to make the job more appealing?

[Marc Mayrand]

Pay can indeed be a factor that facilitates recruitment and stems attrition, which is actually a fairly significant problem. The pay scale has just been reviewed with a view to the next election campaign. In fact, the new pay scale was already in force for the September by-elections. It would, however, have to be reviewed again—it always needs tweaking. We will have to determine whether it ought to be increased, which will obviously require Treasury Board approval.

Other factors also come into play. We did not suggest any solutions to the committee today, firstly because I am not certain that this particular issue is actually relevant to the bill in its present form; and secondly, because I believe we should first consult with the political parties to get a better understanding of the challenges they face and to hear their suggested solutions. That is something which I plan to do...

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

We have to know that we will be able to find this staff that we need before implementing a system that could give rise to dissatisfaction. I would ask that you keep us informed of what you find out.

You spoke about the ban on election-period advertising and on the first publication of an election survey—measures that currently apply on general elections polling days—but you did not make any specific recommendations.

Given that the last advance polling day has essentially become a second general election polling day, do you think that the same rules should apply on both days? For example, I am always asked to move three or four of my electoral signs that are visible from the polling station entrance. Would this mean that I could leave them up outside the school on a Sunday? We did not make any recommendations on this front. Do you not think that the same rules should apply on both days?

[Marc Mayrand]

My objective this morning was to bring these issues, which could become controversial during an election, to the attention of the committee. I wanted to share our understanding of the bill with you. I think it is for the committee to discuss them and come up with suggestions.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I think that you have met your objective this morning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Next is Mr. Godin for seven minutes.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank our witnesses, especially Mr. Mayrand, for coming this morning to share their views with us.

You talked about Sweden. In that case, is it two consecutive days, and is it Sunday and Monday?

[Marc Mayrand]

It is two consecutive days, and from what I recall, one of them is Sunday, but I do not remember if the other day is Saturday or Monday. I do not want to mislead you.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

From the outset, Sunday is a problem for me. People could raise religious considerations, but it goes much farther than that. In fact, allowing stores to be open on Sundays has already messed up our weekends.

At the end of the week, people who have a pay cheque only have a certain amount to spend. Now, families have lost their weekends. They no longer exist. I'm afraid that Elections Canada will be causing people who need rest to lose even more of their weekends. That is why weekends exist. That is the comment I wanted to make. There is no respect for Sundays and weekends. Everyone wants to take them over and make people work. Our society is lacking that. It is as if we have to work 24 hours a day, seven days a week. There's no more room for rest. At the outset, it is not a good idea.

Having said that, I do have a suggestion to make. Of course, it would be up to us to do it, since we are the legislators. You say you are looking for people. Many people could help Elections Canada, but they cannot do so because of the regulations. For example, people who are receiving employment insurance could volunteer. At home, we have the highest unemployment rate in Canada. Many people could work, but because they have to declare their income, at the end of the week, they will have lost more money than they have earned. A large number of people could help throughout Canada. Since this is about working for the country, perhaps an exception could be made in that specific circumstance. In the case of Elections Canada, it could be excluded as income under employment insurance. That could be a future recommendation. It would be a lot easier to find people. People know how to count. If they calculate that they will have lost money by the end of the week, they will not even consider it worthwhile to go.

As regards the churches, your comments are very accurate. Some rural regions no longer have community centres. They have closed. The church is the only place available. That will become a problem. I would like to hear you elaborate a little more on that.

Moreover, you suggested that the office of the returning officer or even the deputy returning officer keep the ballot boxes. I have a problem with entrusting the ballots to one person. It is a huge responsibility. That could lend itself to controversy and cause squabbling. We would have to be careful so that it did not turn into a circus.

[Marc Mayrand]

At the moment, there are just over 2,000 churches that are used as voting places. So far, we have not exactly determined how many of them would be available for voting on Sunday. The preliminary information we have from people in the field indicates that we would have to expect that many of these churches would not be available on Sunday.

That said, we will have to look at other options. That is why one of our suggestions today is that the committee consider an amendment that would provide greater flexibility regarding the polling place. We think that in some cases, the two polling days could not be held in the same location. This further complicates the information we need to give voters, and could be a problem.

With respect to the safekeeping of ballot boxes, the bill in its current form is such that day 1 would be an advance polling day. At the moment, the deputy returning officers are responsible for safeguarding the ballot boxes on the advance polling day right up till the time the votes are counted. We raised this issue, because the proposed system would mean that the current number of deputy returning officers, 3,000, would increase to approximately 64,000. And they would be responsible for safeguarding the ballot boxes.

The other difficulty in this regard is the following. It could happen that a DRO would not be available on the following day, but because of the hours of work, we would have a little time to find the individual and recover the material. The fact is that Bill C-16 provides that in some locations, the vote will end at 8:00 p.m. and begin at 7:00 a.m. the following morning. This would leave very little time to recover the material, in the case of an incident. For purely operational reasons, we suggest that the committee consider an amendment that would provide for some flexibility in this regard. This discretion would be exercised in accordance with public instructions given to DROs and returning officers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we did schedule our witnesses this morning for one hour, but I'm going to ask if it's all right with everybody that we go at least one more round of questioning, which puts the witnesses at 12:15 approximately. Is that okay?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you. I'm assuming, colleagues, with the preparation, we would at least want one more round of questioning.

We will enter our second round. It will be a five-minute round and we'll begin with Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Mayrand, Ms. Davidson, Mr. Perrault and Mr. Molnar. We always appreciate having you come to meet with us.

Mr. Mayrand, we are talking here about the day preceding the usual voting day. So it would become a second polling day that would be open from A to Z. So rather than having some advance polling days and one election day, we end up with two election days and a few advance polling days, to be held a week or a few days beforehand. That is pretty much what this bill would do.

[Marc Mayrand]

I think that is how voters would see it. As I mentioned earlier, day 1 is subject to different rules. The vote begins at noon on the Sunday, stops overnight and continues the next morning. It would involve the same officials, the same electoral list and the same premises.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I have a question about recruiting election officials. You confirm that a person who works as the DRO on the Sunday could not be the DRO on election day, unless the individual had the ballot box with him for the whole day or rented a vault at the local bank in order to safeguard the ballot box. Otherwise, it would be impossible to ensure the safekeeping of the ballot box.

Do you agree?

[Marc Mayrand]

Generally speaking, yes, to the extent that I understand your question. The same election officials would be working both days. According to the provisions of the bill as I understand them, these people would be responsible for safeguarding the ballot box overnight. They would take it home with them and would come back with it the next morning.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That means that you would use the same box on election day as had been used the Sunday before.

[Marc Mayrand]

Yes.