Evidence of meeting #4 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was voting.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michel Bédard  Committee Researcher
Marc Mayrand  Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Harry Mortimer  Director, Regulatory Compliance and Reporting, Liberal Party of Canada
Éric Hébert-Daly  Federal Secretary, New Democratic Party

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, I call the meeting to order. Thank you all for coming this morning. I appreciate everyone being here. The proceedings are being televised at the request of some committee members.

As agreed by the committee at the last meeting on Tuesday, and pursuant to the committee's order of reference of Thursday, November 7, 2007, the committee is here to continue its study of Bill C-16, which is the new number. This is the former Bill C-55 from the last session. It is an An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act (expanded voting opportunities) and to make a consequential amendment to the Referendum Act.

Madam Robillard, do you have a comment?

November 15th, 2007 / 11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Mr. Chairman, I have a question for you. When we began our study of what was then Bill C-55, Minister Van Loan appeared before the committee to answer our questions. While he was here, he quoted a number of research papers. Before he left, Mr. Chairman, you yourself asked the minister to provide us with a list of those studies so that our researchers could summarize them for us. The minister said that he would provide us with a list.

Has it been sent to you yet? Are we going to be given a summary of the research that has been carried out on the subject?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

My apologies. I'll take that as a point of clarification. We have the list of research, and I will submit it to members as soon as possible. We'll have it photocopied and sent around the table right away.

Is there any further comment?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Mr. Chairman, you said: "Our researchers could summarize it for members of the committee."

Is it only the list that we have, or has a summary also been prepared?

11:05 a.m.

Michel Bédard Committee Researcher

We are going to begin preparing a summary of the research and I can promise you that you will have it by the time clause-by-clause examination of the bill begins.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Merci.

Colleagues, we have some other routine business, but I'll raise it after our witnesses are finished this morning.

I'd like to introduce our witnesses for this morning. We have Monsieur Mayrand, the Chief Electoral Officer for Elections Canada.

Monsieur Mayrand, I will offer you the opportunity to introduce your colleagues now, and then we'll start the proceedings.

11:05 a.m.

Marc Mayrand Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

With me is Mrs. Diane Davidson, the deputy chief electoral officer and chief legal counsel; Mr. Rennie Molnar, deputy chief electoral officer for electoral events; and Monsieur Stéphane Perrault, senior general counsel.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you very much.

Welcome to everyone.

Monsieur Mayrand, I will offer you 10 minutes, but I'm not going to shut you down. I understand you have a rather detailed introduction, and I will allow you the time to introduce that and read it out to the committee.

Colleagues, we will have the usual allocation of time and the usual rounds of questioning.

Monsieur Mayrand, you have the floor.

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm pleased to appear before the committee today to discuss Bill C-16, the purpose of which is to add two advance polling days to the election calendar.

This bill provides greater flexibility for us to serve electors by giving them more opportunities to exercise their right to vote. In so doing, it facilitates participation and access to the electoral process. Access is, in fact, one of the strategic objectives Elections Canada set itself in the five-year strategy plan that we recently developed.

However, the bill presents a number of operational challenges, which touch on three elements: the fact of having two consecutive polling days in some 64,000 polling stations: differences in rules applicable for the day before election day and for election day itself: and, lastly, the proposed timeframe for implementation.

These challenges are in addition to a series of changes to the electoral process that include Bill C-31, passed last spring, and upcoming changes addressed in different bills recently introduced in Parliament. The adjustments resulting from the successive changes present challenges for electors, political entities and election officials that must be taken into account.

With regard to the first challenge, the bill provides for one last advance voting day the day before polling day. Day 1 in our jargon, and that is how I will refer to it this morning. Day 1 polling would be held in all of the approximately 64,000 polling stations used on polling day. This creates several operational issues for Elections Canada. I would like to focus on four in particular.

The first operational issue is recruiting and retaining election officers; indeed, this was already a major challenge even before the introduction of Bill C-16, owing partly to the fact that returning officers must wait for political parties to supply the names up to the 17th day prior to election day to hire deputy returning officers and clerks. And on that day, the political parties have usually supplied less than half of the names needed to fill openings. This means that, 17 days before polling day, most of the recruiting has yet to be done, and we need to be ready for the advance voting days, which start one week later. Furthermore, it is sometimes necessary to train up to 800 people in order to fill the 500 to 600 positions in each electoral district.

The second operational issue relates to polling stations and opening hours. Polling stations will be open from noon to 8:00 p.m. in all regions of the country, which effectively means a 10-hour working day, if one includes preparation time prior to opening the polling stations and procedures required following the close of the polling stations. However, in British Columbia, Alberta and the Yukon, polling stations must open again at 7:00 a.m. or 7:30 a.m. the next day for approximately a 14-hour work day, for a total of 24 hours' work over two days. Not only is this a great deal to ask of election workers, but also a short rest period increases the risk that workers who are not rested and ready for election day will fail to report for work on that day.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Excusez-moi. It's too noisy.

We seem to have an echo in the room, so any conversations that are taking place around the room tend to bounce right back into the centre, and the door is open to try to remove some of the extra warmth in the room. So I apologize, Monsieur Mayrand.

Can we just keep the conversations down? Or perhaps folks could exit the room.

Monsieur Mayrand, please, my apologies.

11:15 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

The third operational issue relates to polling stations. Polling stations will be in the same location for day 1 and for polling day. In rural areas, the only places available for use as polling stations are often schools or places of worship. It is possible that churches are available only on the Monday, while schools are available only on the Sunday.

In fact, some 11% of the approximately 20,000 sites currently used for polling on Mondays are in churches or other places of worship. We believe that, in many cases, schools or churches will not be available for two days in a row, on a Sunday and Monday.

Our fourth operational issue is that there are certain risks associated with leaving uncounted ballots in the care of some 64,000 election workers. It is possible that some people will quit—or worse, disappear—between day 1 and day 0. It would therefore be preferable to consider alternatives in order to give returning officers ways of coping with these inevitable situations.

To address the challenges presented by two consecutive polling days, I would ask that you consider the three following solutions.

Firstly, day 1 advance polling stations could be open for eight hours, as is already the case, but on a staggered schedule from east to west. Thus, polling stations would open at 11:00 a.m. in the Atlantic provinces, Quebec and Ontario, at 10:00 a.m. in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta, and at 9:00 a.m. in British Columbia. In this way, polling stations in British Columbia would close at 5:00 p.m. instead of 8:00 p.m. on day 1, giving election officers in the western provinces comparable rest time as eastern provinces and thereby reducing the risk that they fail to report in the morning of election day.

Secondly, returning officers should have the discretion to locate a polling station at two different sites in the event that it is not possible for polling to take place at the same site on both day 1 and day 0. Our aim would be to have polling take place in the same location on both days, but in some cases there might be no choice but to use two different sites.

My third proposed solution to the aforementioned challenges is as follows: returning officers in each of the 64,000 polling stations should be given discretion to decide on the best solution for safe-keeping ballot boxes and uncounted ballots, in accordance with instructions from the Chief Electoral Officer. Such instructions would include a range of options for returning officers such as storage in a secure location at the polling station site or the office of the returning officer, or even at the deputy returning officer's home.

The second challenge regards the rules applicable to voting day and the day before voting. The bill states that advance polling rules will apply on day one. On the day after, of course, polling day rules will apply, but it's the same election workers who will have to apply both sets of rules. As a result, they will need to be given additional training so that they can apply different procedures for each of the two polling days they are hired for.

For example, during the advance poll, the poll clerk must complete the register of the names of electors who voted and have it signed by the elector, who identifies himself or herself and provides the required piece of identification before he or she can vote. By comparison, on election day, once the elector has identified himself or herself and provided the required pieces of identification, all the clerk has to do is find the elector's name on the voters list and cross it off. Electors then can vote. This makes the process much quicker, much more fluid, and simpler for both electors and electoral workers.

To address this challenge, I would ask you to consider amending the legislation in such a way that the polling day rules for the conduct of the vote also apply to day one advance polling, except with regard to polling hours. This recommendation would have two effects: one, obviate the need to enter in the register the name and address of electors who have voted and to have electors sign the register; and two, allow bingo cards to be provided to the candidates' representatives every 30 minutes instead of just once at the end of the day, as is the case on the other advance voting days.

Lastly, I would bring to your attention the fact that our reading of the bill is that certain rules applying to polling day will not apply on day one. I'm thinking, for example, of the ban on election advertising and on the first publication of an election survey, as well as the right each employee has to three consecutive hours in which to vote.

The implementation period is another challenge. I'd like to address it, given the significant impact the bill could have on the conduct of elections. As drafted, the bill would come into force three months after royal assent. I have to tell you right off that Elections Canada can't possibly get ready to hold an election according to the new rules in such a short period of time.

The proper implementation of Bill C-16 will require considerable effort to educate voters, update the manuals, train election personnel, and upgrade the 11 computer systems affected by the amendments. Each of these activities require detailed planning, the development and adoption of stringent programs, and painstaking execution. None of these activities can be carried out satisfactorily within the three months set aside by the legislation.

Meanwhile, we still have work to complete to comply with the December 22, 2007, and April 22, 2008, coming-into-force dates for certain provisions of Bill C-31. The overlap with the implementation of Bill C-16 adds to the complexity of the task, particularly when it comes to modifying the computer systems.

Finally, all implementation and communication activities must be carried out while remaining ready at all times for a general election or byelection.

For all these reasons, I would ask you to defer the coming into force of Bill C-16 until January 1, 2009, assuming that the legislation receives royal assent before March 1, 2008. For my part, I pledge to do everything in my power, as was the case for certain key provisions of Bill C-31 last summer, to implement the legislation ahead of schedule if the preparations have been finalized.

Before concluding my remarks, I'd like to point out that the initial implementation costs of this bill will be a bit less than $3.5 million, and adding the two voting days will cost upward of $34 million for each general election. Ninety-four per cent of these costs have to do with the additional advanced voting day the day before the vote. The last general election cost $277 million, including reimbursement to parties and candidates of $54 million. These changes would therefore represent an increase of 14% of the total cost of a general election.

It may therefore be worthwhile to review the impact of these changes on voter turnout for a general election following the bill's coming into force.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, Elections Canada supports the objective underlying this bill, which is to make it easier for electors to exercise their right to vote. I would ask you, however, to consider certain amendments to the bill in order to provide some limited flexibility in the administration of those new rules.

Furthermore, I would ask you to defer the coming into force of the bill so that we can have time to put in place the tools needed to ensure the success of the new provision while ensuring the integrity of the electoral process.

In closing, I would like to provide the committee with some technical documents suggesting wording for the proposed amendments to the bill.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you, Mr. Mayrand.

Perhaps I can just ask, before we begin our rounds of questioning, whether I misheard you. On page 13 of your report I believe you stated it was a 14% increase. Is it 14% or 12%? It's 12%?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

It's 12%.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Okay, so colleagues know it's a 12% increase.

We will begin our round of questioning, starting with Madam Robillard. We will start our first round with seven minutes, and the second round will be five.

Madam Robillard, please, you have the floor for seven minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank the Elections Canada team for once again appearing before the committee. Given the bills that we will be studying, I imagine that we will have the opportunity to meet with you often over the upcoming weeks and months.

Mr. Mayrand, I think that all parliamentarians around this table, and indeed the majority of Canadians, would agree that if the objective of this bill is to facilitate voting, then so much the better. After all, who would oppose a noble cause? However, as the saying goes, too much of a good thing can spoil everything.

To my mind, the current federal voting system is extremely flexible. Take for example voting by special ballot and postal voting. We already have three advance polling days in addition to polling day itself, yet still people are seeking to add two more. If we carry on down this track, we will soon find ourselves with 36 polling days.

We have to be certain, and I am not, as yet, that such a measure will result in increased voter turn-out. When the minister appeared before the committee, we asked whether studies showed a correlative increase in voter turnout. He mentioned a number of studies from other countries that showed that allowing people to vote on Sundays increased turnout by 10%. He also mentioned a poll carried out by Elections Canada in 2003. This is something that I would like you to discuss with us at greater length. As you have provided us with a working paper on voter turnout today, I was wondering whether you had carried out any additional work on the subject. After all, although facilitating voting may result in an increase in voter turnout, the difference may be negligible. I would like to hear your viewpoint on this matter.

In addition, I would like to know whether you can provide us with a daily breakdown of voter turnout statistics for advance polling days—in other words, how many people choose to vote on a Friday, a Saturday and a Monday. At the moment, we assume, for example, that people will be more inclined to vote on a Sunday than a Saturday, for example.

Lastly, I would like to discuss my concerns about recruiting election officers. As far as I understand, this is a bigger and bigger challenge with each passing election. I'm not talking about our volunteers, I'm talking about paid electoral officers. We have just had three by-elections in Quebec, and our three returning officers struggled to fill the positions. We need people to work four, five or six days over approximately a week. I am very worried about this situation.

11:25 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

Firstly, a number of surveys have been carried out on how voter turnout is affected, and I believe the minister mentioned them when he appeared before the committee to discuss the bill. In addition, this morning we circulated a study on potential impacts on voter turnout that we commissioned from Professor Blais of the Université de Montréal. Obviously, it is a very complex issue. A number of very diverse factors can affect voter turnout. We have to consider factors such as age, demographics, geography and voters' individual circumstances.

In the 2003 survey to which you referred, citizens who did not exercise their right to vote often blamed factors such as scheduling conflicts with family or professional responsibilities.

The bill provides voters with another option by allowing them to vote in all polling stations either on the day before polling day or on another advance polling day. I am unable to give you concrete conclusions as to the exact effect the bill will have on voter turnout. It would seem reasonable to suggest that by giving voters more options it will be easier for them to manage their schedules and find a convenient time to go to the polling station.

With regard to a day-by-day breakdown of voter turnout statistics, I am unable to give you any such information this morning. Indeed, I'm not even certain that we have such information. It is something that we would want to do were the bill to be adopted, so that we could measure its impact. By way of a general comment on voter turnout, Canada has witnessed a decline in turnout over the past four or five federal elections, with the exception of the 2006 election where an increase of just over 4% was recorded. We will have to wait until the next general election to see whether it was a one-event increase or whether it is indicative of a new trend.

We have also noted that there has been an increase in the number of votes cast using the alternative voting procedures, even if such ballots still represent a relatively small percentage of the overall vote. Three per cent of voters use the rights accorded under the special regulations to vote either at the office of the returning officer or by mail.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you.

I'm sorry. That was seven minutes. Thank you very much. There will be time for another round, I'm positive.

We go now to Mr. Reid for seven minutes, please.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, thank you very much, Mr. Mayrand and your team, for coming out here. It's always a pleasure to have you before our committee.

I occupied myself during your presentation by attempting to simultaneously listen to you and read the report of Professor Blais and two other co-authors, one whose name I can't pronounce. I have a number of questions that arose out of what they were discussing and that overlap to some degree with your comments.

The thing I was looking for in the study--and I don't see a specific number--was their projection as to the actual percentage increase in voter turnout, what they anticipate. They say it would very likely happen, but it would be modest. I'm not sure if there is an actual number they give.

And secondly, I was hoping to find--and I don't think I saw in here--any information as to where you'd be likely to see greater or lesser degrees of impact on voter turnout.

I'll ask you if there is any further information you have or light you could shed on those two subjects, and then I want to come back after that with some further discussion.

11:30 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

Yes. And maybe I should point out that Canada, to my knowledge, would be the only country to have two days of consecutive voting, along with, I believe, Sweden, among developed countries.

Mr. Blais has looked at various studies, has looked at all the factors at play, and his conclusion is that providing additional opportunities for voters is likely to increase participation. To what extent, again, is very difficult to say. As he points out, there are so many factors at play here that it's very difficult to isolate one as being the one that really influences the participation rate. But again, his conclusion is that we can reasonably expect that it will increase—maybe marginally, but it will increase—participation.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

In going through it, I didn't see anything regarding different impacts in different areas of the country. I'll tell you the sort of thing that occurs to me, and I'm wondering whether there's anything you have that either supports or contradicts the hypothesis I'm going to put forward. It seems to me that in an urban area you're unlikely to see as much of a change in voter participation as you would in a rural or remote area. I used to represent a partly urban, partly rural riding—now it's all rural—and the obvious point to note is that going to an advance poll in a rural area frequently involves a long trip. Especially when you have aging populations, as you often do in areas where there's population decline—such as the one I represent—many of them no longer have driver's licences and they are dependent on family members to get them out to the polls, that kind of thing.

In a remote area—Nunavut comes to mind—you have a situation in which if the poll isn't the poll in your community, the one that occurs on voting day, you really can't vote. So advance voting, at least prior to the implementation of this bill, would be more a theoretical concept than a reality. I would expect a greater level of shift there in terms of voter participation than I would in an urban area, where essentially it's a choice between going to the high school a block away on voting day or someplace that's three or four blocks away on another day.

Do you have any comment or any familiarity with that?

11:35 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

There is no doubt in my mind that the bill would make it much more convenient for electors in terms of having access to exercise their right to vote. We have increased the number of advance polling locations over the years, but again, the initiative proposed here, to have a full advance polling day on the Sunday, would certainly meet the challenge that many electors face in the region.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

I'm sorry, I wasn't sure if you were consulting with some notes for further comment.

I was looking at some of what Professor Blais talked about, and it does seem to me that there is one area where.... I want to be cautious in saying that I dispute his findings, because I have great respect for the professor and his work, but he makes a comparison between 2004 and 2006 and attempts, based on some kind of numerical measure, to say that there is an increase in voter turnout at advance polls. Looking at those two results, and the results in the same ridings on how many additional votes in total were cast, we can come up with the metric that says for every additional vote cast in 2006 at advance polls, in a riding-by-riding comparison, we see a 0.56% increase in total voter turnout. While it's an interesting number, I do think it is, frankly, a bit of a non sequitur here, and I guess I'm throwing it out just so people are aware of my concern. This is, I think, fundamentally different from the idea of an advance voting day where polls are available everywhere. I'm just not sure this particular metric can be applied to that future hypothetical situation and produce the same kind of overall result.

I don't know if you would agree with me that the application of that to a future hypothetical situation might not produce the precise outcome he's suggesting.

11:35 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

It is very difficult, because again, there's been no experience at all with this new approach, which is quite innovative. Again, we always have to be careful in comparing things. One thing the committee may want to look into is what happened recently in the Ontario provincial election, where there was a significant increase in numbers of advance polling days, yet at the end of the day there was still a decrease in overall turnout.

Again, it's a different regime there from what's being proposed in Bill C-16. I'm just being cautious as to expectations that can be raised. It would certainly make it more convenient for electors.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear

Thank you, Mr. Reid, I appreciate that.

We will go to our next questioner, Monsieur Paquette, for seven minutes.