Evidence of meeting #11 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was general.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Errol Mendes  Professor, Constitutional and International Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Peter Russell  Professor Emeritus, Department of Political Science, University of Toronto, As an Individual

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Order. Good morning. We're going to get started.

This is meeting eleven of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Today we're still dealing with, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(a) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, March 11, 2010, a study of issues related to prorogation.

We have with us this morning Professor Mendes for our first hour, and another witness in our second hour. We'll try to do questioning much like we did in the last meeting. It seemed to work out well for us.

Professor Mendes, do you have an opening statement? If so, please deliver it and then we'll go to questions.

11:05 a.m.

Professor Errol Mendes Professor, Constitutional and International Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Thank you for inviting me here. I do have a presentation. I think it's both in English and French, which I think the clerk has. I won't read all of it because of the time limit, but I'll see how far I can go.

The foundation of our constitutional democracy rests on the principle of responsible government. The historic ruling by the House of Commons Speaker, Peter Milliken, just a few days ago on the documents relating to the Afghan detainee issue has reinforced this fundamental nature of Canadian democracy. The principle of responsible government requires that the government of the day, be it a majority government or a minority government, maintain the confidence of the House of Commons. Maintaining the confidence of the House of Commons requires the government to fully respect the constitutionally protected parliamentary privileges of all members of the House.

Our democracy cannot be maintained by the manipulation of the PM's conventional powers and the Governor General's prerogative powers that were ironically designed to promote democratic accountability in the Parliamentary system we inherited from Great Britain.

The Supreme Court of Canada in two major decisions has confirmed that the parliamentary privileges include holding the government to account and, as such, is the Constitution of Canada.

This foundation of democracy can be undermined by the misuse of conventional powers of the Prime Minister to advise the Governor General to prorogue Parliament to avoid a clear loss of confidence of the House or to violate the parliamentary privileges of Canadians’ elected representatives, such as proroguing to shut down parliamentary committees that are investigating serious allegations. The ability to hold senior government officials to account is at the core of parliamentary privilege, as the Speaker has just ruled.

A proper democratic use of the prerogative power is a legitimate power to end one session of Parliament after a substantial part of the legislative agenda has been fulfilled leading to a new Speech from the Throne.

There have been many prorogation requests by former governments and Prime Ministers, and in the early decades of the Canadian Parliament, the practice was to end a session of Parliament by prorogation rather than a lengthy adjournment. In 1982, the Standing Orders were introduced to establish fixed sessions, which have resulted in approximately 2.1 prorogations for each Parliament.

These are facts that have to be taken into account whenever there are statements made that prorogation is quite routine and has occurred 104 times before. The present 40th Parliament had three throne speeches by March 3, 2010, in four years as compared to the four prorogations by the previous government in ten years.

In order to protect these fundamental principles of our constitutional democracy and to protect the constitutionally protected parliamentary privileges of the House of Commons, I suggest that it is possible to establish a process that will lead to the establishment of binding conventional rules. This can be achieved by the passing of standing orders and supporting legislation that will achieve the following.

Firstly, by standing orders of the House of Commons, limit the conventional power of the Prime Minister to request the prorogation of Parliament from the Governor General within the first year following any Speech from the Throne unless the House of Commons consents and indicates that the government maintains the confidence of the House.

Secondly, the Standing Orders can require the Prime Minister to give advance notice to both the House of Commons and Senate of the intention to seek prorogation with a statement as to why such a request does not interfere with the Parliamentary privileges of members of the House and that it is not designed to avoid losing the confidence of the House. The statement should also be immediately debated in the House.

Third, the standing orders can also limit the duration of any prorogation to no more than one calendar month.

Fourth, the process leading to a binding conventional rule in this regard could include the passing of supporting legislation to reinforce the above standing orders as suggested by opposition parties. This legislation should make it clear that while the reserve powers of the Governor General to consent or refuse the request remains unfettered, the legislation should be exclusively focused on limiting the conventional powers of the Prime Minster to seek such a request in certain situations. Now, it is acknowledged that there is some constitutional uncertainty as to whether a Prime Minister and a government can violate this curtailment of his conventional powers by hiding behind the reserve powers of the Governor General. The legislation mirroring the standing orders would be aimed primarily at aiding in the creation of binding conventional rules that are broken only at political cost.

Finally, the standing orders and the legislation can be formally transmitted by the Speaker of the House of Commons to the Governor General to inform her of the will of the Canadian people as represented through the Parliament of Canada, that she--if she is reappointed--and future Governor Generals should exercise their reserve powers to stop future anti-democratic prorogations that severely undermine the principles of responsible government. Now, there is an unwritten conventional power, based on the rights and privileges of the Speaker on behalf of the House of Commons, to have the ability to advise the Governor General on issues relating to the foundations of responsible government, and certainly the curtailment of the power of the Prime Minister to advise on prorogation against the wishes of the House of Commons would fall within the power of the Speaker of the House of Commons to advise the Governor General. It is not only the Prime Minister who has the power to advise the Governor General. What is not really known is that it is also the Speaker of the House of Commons, speaking on behalf of the House of Commons, who has the right to advise the Governor General.

In this fashion, conventional rules will be the bulwark against the ability of the Prime Minister to prorogue to avoid confidence votes or to shut down the ability of Parliament and its committees to hold the government to account. There are numerous examples of binding conventional rules that limit the Prime Minister and the government from performing certain functions, even though it is legally and constitutionally permitted to do so. Perhaps the most famous example of this is the ability of the federal government to seek the disallowance of provincial legislation. It has never been exercised—or at least once, in the early days of Parliament. The conventional rules prevent any possibility of that ability to exercise it.

It should also be kept in mind that the only thing that stopped Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau from repatriating the Constitution without substantial provincial consent was the power of conventional rules.

Responsible government demands that those who have power act responsibly in the interests of Canada. They should not be in it for themselves.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you, Professor.

Madam Jennings, are you going to take the first round?

We're going to try five minutes and see if we can get through a couple of rounds.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Certainly. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Professor Mendes--one, for agreeing to appear before this committee, and two, for the presentation you've just made.

I would like to go back and confirm that you have followed the presentation that was made by Rob Walsh, the law clerk and parliamentary counsel, when he appeared before this committee.

11:10 a.m.

Prof. Errol Mendes

Yes, I have.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Did you also follow the presentation of Thomas Hall, a retired former procedural clerk of the House of Commons?

11:10 a.m.

Prof. Errol Mendes

Yes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Therefore, I would like you to comment a little further on the issue of a suggestion that Rob Walsh made that changes to the standing order, as proposed by some opposition parties, would in fact have no effect in the sense that if the Prime Minister of the day ignored them, went and requested prorogation, and that prorogation was given by the GG, the prorogation itself would remain valid and legal. Therefore, the committee and the House, if we want to go that route of limiting the Prime Minister's authority and prerogative to request prorogation, we might want to go the route of having standing orders that would be punitive—well, he actually said, “disincentives”; I should stop using the word “punitive”, because that's not the word that Mr. Walsh used.

Secondly, I'd like to hear a little bit more from you on the issue of the unwritten conventional law or right of the Speaker to advise the Governor General of the will of the House.

11:10 a.m.

Prof. Errol Mendes

Firstly, in terms of the idea of putting disincentives into the standing orders, that's certainly possible. While legally, yes, the Prime Minister can disobey it, as he did with the fixed election law, what I'm suggesting in terms of the standing orders, plus the supporting legislation, is the creation of a binding conventional rule that will in effect have severe political consequences, and potentially for the Governor General to exercise her reserve powers to refuse a prorogation, which is in direct violation of the House of Commons.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

And the Speaker?

11:10 a.m.

Prof. Errol Mendes

What's little known is that the Speaker can exercise the rights and privileges on behalf of the House of Commons to seek to advise the Governor General on issues that relate to responsible government. The Prime Minister is not the only one who has the ability to advise the Governor General. The Speaker also has that power.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

How much time do I have?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

You have two minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

That's wonderful.

Some of my colleagues in the House like to recall the coalition government agreement between the Liberals and the NDP in 2008 and the fact that a letter was sent by the Liberals, and a letter that was signed by the leaders of opposition parties, to the Governor General.

Had this little-known rule been known that the Speaker has the right to provide advice to the Governor General of the will of the House, and had in fact there been some type of a motion in the House, then the Speaker and the House could have at the time, if it were adopted in that motion, instructed the Speaker to inform the Governor General formally of what had been happening or whatever.

11:15 a.m.

Prof. Errol Mendes

Well, that could certainly have been a possibility.

In terms of the letter, I actually question whether she even read it. Given the fact that under strict parliamentary or constitutional tradition, she's only supposed to seek the advice of the Privy Council, I wonder whether she even saw that letter.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

That's why I'm saying that had this little-known rule about the Speaker been better known among all parliamentarians--not one parliamentarian from any party has ever raised this issue--there might have been a different route.

11:15 a.m.

Prof. Errol Mendes

Absolutely. What I'm suggesting here is for Parliament to take action to essentially put in place certain types of standing orders, plus the supporting legislation, to create the conventional rule that no future Prime Minister can violate--they can legally, but at immense cost politically--and potentially allow the Governor General to exercise his or her reserve powers to refuse the prorogation.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

The package you're proposing would incorporate that there would be clear instructions from the House to the Speaker to advise, formally advise, the Governor General of the will of the House.

11:15 a.m.

Prof. Errol Mendes

Absolutely. I'm suggesting that once the standing orders are actually made, they are immediately transmitted to the Governor General so that she has advance notice that if anything like this were to happen again, there would be a potential for the Speaker to represent the will of the House of Commons in the future.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Very good. You're almost right on time, too.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

There you go.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Reid.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair

Welcome, Professor Mendes; glad to see you.

Based on what we've just heard--Madam Jennings' suggestion and your response--I could be wrong, but I have the impression that two different paths are being suggested, or two different considerations are at work here.

One is conventional constitutional obligations, which, as Dicey said, are those that are enforced by public opinion writ large, by public pressure, by an expectation that norms have been developed and political actors ought not to violate those norms. I think that was the avenue you were taking in your presentation.

Although I could be wrong, it sounds to me that what Madam Jennings is suggesting is actually a rule that says the Governor General will actually take the advice of the Speaker over that of the Prime Minister under certain circumstances, that it's not being enforced by public opinion but it's being enforced by a convention binding upon the Governor General. The Governor General would be acting unconstitutionally, in the British sense, in the conventional sense, to take the Prime Minister's advice.

In other words, it's not a matter of the public getting around to punishing the Prime Minister. It's a matter of the Governor General responding to a different set of expectations.

11:15 a.m.

Prof. Errol Mendes

Yes, you're right. Until there is a constitutional amendment under section 41 of the Constitution Act, 1982, the powers and the office of the Governor General really cannot be affected. So she has the ability to exercise her reserve powers either to agree or disagree.

But what I think has happened with the Governor General over many decades, if not centuries, is that he or she is acutely aware of the rules of conventions. That is why, in certain circumstances, the Governor General has refused to accept the advice, such as in the King-Byng affair.

So it is very important to stress that conventional rules are not legal rules; however, they can be as binding on actors as legal rules.