Evidence of meeting #39 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was block.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Hamilton, you just stated that Mr. Ullyatt was a public office holder. Is it your understanding of the statute that governs lobbying that staff of an individual member of Parliament are public office holders?
12:40 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
He is a public office holder by virtue of the fact that he is paid by the state. He's not a designated public.... No, he has been a designated public office holder. He's covered under the FAA.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Actually, he's not. He's the staff of a member of Parliament. He's not a public office holder.
12:40 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
He previously held office in a minister of state's office.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
In that case, is he a public office holder when he's working for Ms. Block? Does it carry on from his previous employment?
12:40 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
I believe that would be carried over under the act, yes. He still would be subject to the five-year ban.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
We'll have a chance to get to the bottom of that.
I want to go back to your exchanges with Mr. Ullyatt. I find them most intriguing in light of the testimony you gave us here today, even if that testimony wasn't under oath.
His first note to you was “Thought you might want a peek at this in its infancy”.
That's the very first thing. Now, when someone uses the word “peek”, it might give you the first hint, especially with the words “draft report”. With your 15 or 20 years' experience, didn't that “peek”, that mention of “draft report”, light the slightest yellow light on your dashboard? Was there no warning whatsoever that this might be something you weren't allowed to receive? Was there nothing at all?
12:40 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
I never thought for a moment that Russell would send me anything that would be inappropriate.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
It's been twice now that you've talked about it being his fault. He was very contrite. He met with the committee before, but now we're talking about you. We're not talking about him any more. He's already been clear with us on that. Let's talk about you now, okay?
You keep saying “I can't believe he sent it to me”. The fact of the matter is, Ms. Hamilton, he did. Now we're not trying to find out what he's done, because he's already talked to us about that at fair length under oath. I want to talk about you now.
You received something that says “Thought you might want a peek at this in its infancy”, and it's clearly labelled as a draft report. In block letters it also says “confidential”. Did none of that ring any bells with you--none of that, with all your experience in the government, working with the Premier of Ontario, working with senior ministers, handling government relations? You're paid now as a lobbyist, a vice-president of a big lobbying firm. Was there nothing?
12:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
If it had, I wouldn't be here today.
12:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
What would I have done? I wouldn't want to speculate.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
I don't blame you.
Now let's go to the next letter back. You send him your heartfelt thanks.
This is a case in point.
You say “I heart you”, meaning “Thank you very much. You've just sent me something that's giving me a peek at something in its infancy. Thank you. You've given me something that I need to help me do my job as a lobbyist.”
Again, there was no reference whatsoever in your mind to the fact that you've been given privileged access, given a peek at something that is a draft. It is giving you a peek. The word “peek” gives you the first inkling that you're being given something that you wouldn't normally have access to, but for you it means nothing. It's still flat, flat, flat, as you read it.
12:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
He basically sends me the document, and I give a quick one line later in the day, not even remembering what I had read before. I just said “I heart you. Thanks”, meaning I thank you. I thank you.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
A couple of hours later in the day he gets back to you--actually, the exchange takes place a few hours after the initial sending, so you've had the whole morning now. He says “Does it make up for all my other shortcomings?”, to which you answer back, “U have no shortcomings!!!”, with three exclamation marks. That's your answer back to him. This is it, with three exclamation marks: he has no shortcomings. This is the thing. He's given you this peek at this draft report in its infancy, and you're still telling this committee it's flatline, it's nothing, it doesn't register. None of this means anything. You haven't seen a thing.
12:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
If somebody's sending you publicly available information....
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Oh, that's even though it says “draft” and “peek” and “confidential” and “privileged”?
12:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
As God is my witness, I don't know how to convince you, but I did not know that this was a confidential document when I got it--
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Well, you're having trouble convincing us, because you're paid a lot of money to make representations to defend the interests of clients. All five of you are doing that quite well today, because you're defending yourselves, but what I'm telling you is this: with all the money you're paid to read documents and help clients with public perceptions of what they do, it strains credibility for you to tell us that you don't even read this stuff. You don't even know what it means when someone says “Have a peek. It's a draft. It's privileged. It's confidential.” It means absolutely nothing, nada.
12:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
It's a busy day. There are clients going—
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
We all have busy days, but I actually manage to read the things that are sent to me on my BlackBerry.
12:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
I try to. I try to get to everything in a day.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
But you have time to send him all this bantering exchange saying he has no shortcomings, with three exclamation marks. That's not a problem.
12:45 p.m.
Vice-President, Public Affairs, GCI Group, As an Individual
I write in cabs, on the way to and from meetings, quickly, as I'm in transit between client meeting and client meeting—
12:45 p.m.
NDP