Evidence of meeting #4 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Mayrand  Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Audrey O'Brien  Clerk of the House of Commons, House of Commons
Louis Bard  Chief Information Officer, House of Commons
Claire Kennedy  Chief Financial Officer, House of Commons

11:50 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

I will provide detailed information on external costs at Elections Canada. On internal costs, it will have to be notional on that. I prefer to tell you right away that I cannot give you the exact number of hours each one has spent on the case over a period of three years now.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

We'll simply appreciate it if you do your best. I understand why you're saying external people. You get the bills for dollars instead of hours, so that's a reasonable point to make.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Moving on, Monsieur Guimond is next on my list.

We're going to be out of time.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

I would like to make one preliminary comment, in light of what Mr. Reid has just said. Since prorogation, we have known that democracy is a problem for the Conservatives. But given the kind of questions Mr. Reid has just asked—unfortunately I missed Mr. Poilievre's masterpiece a little earlier, because I was dealing with an issue in my capacity as whip—we now have confirmation that justice and the legal system in Canada are a problem for the Conservatives.

Legal proceedings were brought against the Chief Electoral Officer.

11:50 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Proceedings were brought against him, he defended himself, he lost, but he has 30 days to appeal, and he has decided to appeal. Mr. Mayrand, you gave very appropriate answers to all the questions you were asked. You work within a budgetary shell. You are not required to provide any justification for a particular lawyer in your legal service having worked up to 12.3 hours last week on this case. You do not have to disclose that information, and your answer was most appropriate. That was my introduction.

11:50 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Now I am going to ask my question. Mr. Mayrand, we know that your prerogatives as a guardian of democracy… I would just like to say in passing, on behalf of the Bloc Québécois, that you continue to enjoy our full confidence. How fortunate we are to have a Chief Electoral Officer who can put the parties back on the straight and narrow. Parties may make unacceptable expenditures, and it is your role as the watchdog of democracy to tell them to stop, that this is not the way the system works, and to give them a rap on the knuckles. And you are using the refund to make the point that this expense is illegal and inadmissible. That is what you are going to do.

I would like to know whether, in the next election, you will wait for the Court of Appeal to render a decision. Also, I would just like to mention in passing that you have the right—and I am certainly not the one giving you permission—to take this case to the Supreme Court if you do not accept the Appeal Court ruling, just as the Conservative Party can. That is what our legal system is all about. So, in the next election, which rules will you be applying?

11:50 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

The current regime—the one that applied in the 2006 and 2008 elections. It continues to apply until such time as there are clearer decisions handed down by the courts or until the legislation is amended.

11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no further questions.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you.

Monsieur Godin, do you have a point?

11:50 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

What you are really saying is that you can't use the back door to try and do what is not allowed through the front door. There is only so much money that can be spent, and it is not acceptable to do things by going through the back door. That is perfectly normal.

I am sure you know that I fully agree with my colleague, Mr. Guimond, when he says that you are the watchdog of democracy in Canada. You are completely independent. If we make a mistake—

I remember that Elections Canada, with respect to signs I had not returned… I don't remember what the cost was, because I never asked. But you were fully entitled to know whether I had returned my signs or not. Even if my signs had cost $1,800 and there were $10,000 worth still to return, that taught me that, the next time around, I had to return the old signs that I had put up in order to save the environment.

When that happened, I don't remember hearing the Conservatives crying wolf, and saying that Elections Canada staff were going to Bathurst to count signs and find out whether they were old signs or not. I didn't hear anything like that. Apparently the money was well spent that time. I remember they all had big smiles on their faces.

I certainly hope so, because this is a public meeting. I think what they're trying to do is tell Canadians that these people are spending money at Elections Canada, because they are going after us. In my opinion, when you do it that way, it is an attack on democracy. They are the ones who will pay the price.

Those are my only comments, Mr. Mayrand. Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you.

That concludes that round. We'll be excusing our witnesses.

Yes, Mr. Reid.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Mr. Chair, I just want to point out that I think Mr. Mayrand stated something that is incorrect. I don't believe that he is legally permitted to apply a rule that has been struck down by a court of law on the theory that an appeal might uphold an overturning of that decision.

I think in the event that no appeal has taken place, I believe that the law—as interpreted by the last court at which the matter was dealt with—is in fact, in practice, the law at that time.

Mr. Mayrand, if I can encourage you, I'd want to ask your lawyers whether that is the case, because you would want to, of course, be in compliance with what the actual law is. You might just want to check into that.

11:55 a.m.

An hon. member

And how many hours they have to work on it--

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Through the chair, please.

Thank you.

11:55 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Marc Mayrand

We will, and in response to the committee on the...we'll put our position on that matter; I'm sure it will clear up confusion.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

We still do need to vote on the supplementaries that we were here to vote on.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Mr. Chair, I wonder if the witness would consent to some more questioning.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

It would take unanimous consent of this committee to stay on this topic instead of moving to our next topic.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Given that we're all open to this discussion, I'm sure you would have no problem obtaining the consent of our friends in the coalition parties to agree to that.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I hear “no”, so apparently I do not have consent. I hear “no” in my left ear.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

All right.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Order, please. Respect at least the position.

There's a point of order.

Excuse me, please.

Go ahead.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

I would just like to add that the coalition is part of democracy, whereas imposing prorogation may sometimes be an abuse of democracy.