Your time is up.
Evidence of meeting #43 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #43 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
Thank you.
I'll get back to you on the second round.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Maybe someone else will help you get that same answer.
Madame DeBellefeuille, it is your turn, please. You have five minutes.
11:20 a.m.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here, Ms. Shepherd.
From the answers you have given my colleagues, the subject you are currently investigating is a precedent. It has never been done. You are looking for a way to handle it with the tools you have, including law enforcement.
If I am not mistaken, the Lobbying Act is going to be reviewed in another committee.
Could you tell us whether, at present, you anticipate amendments or changes to the Act that would enable you to intervene in a case like the one we have in front of us today, to identify and analyze it better?
11:20 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
We are doing a study on the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct. It came into effect in 1997. I think that when the code is reviewed, I will see that it may be time to hold consultations to improve it or change it.
That being said, it is not something that will be happening before the Act is reviewed. It is something I would like to do afterward, because I can't hold consultations at the same time as a review of the Act.
11:20 a.m.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I would like to add: the Act was amended in 2008. The section of the Act dealing with investigations by the Commissioner was changed at the same time. It now provides that the Commissioner could conduct an investigation if she believed it was necessary to ensure compliance with the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct and the Act. Formerly, before July 2008, the powers of investigation applied only to the Code. The Commissioner's powers were broadened in 2008.
11:20 a.m.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC
I have no other questions.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning and welcome, Ms. Shepherd, Mr. Bergen. It's a pleasure to see you again.
I would like to start where my colleague Mr. Proulx left off. I will invite you to explain your approach in greater detail in relation to the surveys you can give. I would compare one aspect of your work to what an auditor does, someone who has to have a degree of expertise to see whether the figures presented are plausible or not.
I will go back to Mr. Proulx's example. Ms. Hamilton worked as a full-time lobbyist and made a very good living. She said she engaged in lobbying activities once or twice a year. An auditor would use a survey technique. Not a survey like CROP or Léger does, but a survey in the accounting sense. To see whether the information given is plausible.
I respectfully submit, since this is your field and not mine, that it is not plausible that a person could earn a good living as a full-time lobbyist, that she could be regarded as one of the best and most active lobbyists, and that she would declare only a few lobbying activities in a year.
What investigative techniques do you have for doing these surveys, an audit? How do you exercise oversight in this regard?
Myself, I'm just gobsmacked when I see these statistics.
11:20 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
In a monthly report to the Commissioner, a lobbyist should indicate the communications they have had with a designated public office holder. It is very possible there is a lot of lobbying with public office holders that is not reported monthly because there is no requirement in that regard. It is very possible that the lobbyist communicates with a lot of directors, directors general or other policy officers. This kind of communication requires that the lobbyist register as such to start with, because there are a lot of communications between a public office holder and...
11:25 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That may be something that can be changed in the Act, if there is thought to be a problem with the monthly reports that show all communications with all public office holders.
That being said, honestly, I don't know whether it will be transparent to put all this information in the system. It's a question that will be raised in the review of the Act.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
If it's a system question, we will help you and equip you with a system capable of taking this kind of information, Ms. Shepherd.
Staying with the theme of the plausibility—not the truth—of what we hear when we meet with lobbyists. I know that Mr. Bergen has undoubtedly reviewed all the transcripts. What they tried to tell us was hilarious. They told us they had seen the document, but they never got as far as the passage where it said "confidential". What they told us was really just any old thing. A whole string of witnesses testified about this.
If I am not mistaken, you will be able to place them under oath?
11:25 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Can you repeat that?
11:25 a.m.
NDP
11:25 a.m.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, to subpoena them as witnesses.
11:25 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
If we conduct an investigation...
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
My question was, are you are able to compel them to testify under oath? That was my question.
11:25 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
If I initiate an investigation, yes.
11:25 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
You might be needing one. We've met them.
I am finished, Mr. Chair. I will wait for the next round.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joe Preston
Thank you.
Madam Jennings, it's your turn again. It's great to have you back here today.