Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 25th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

While we're hunting some of this down, you're looking for an answer to the word ministérielle.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I want to make sure that décision ministérielle means the same thing as “departmental” in English, as opposed to implying that the minister--

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Perhaps I can answer that for you. I am a former public servant.

Anything called a departmental decision stops at deputy minister level. A minister's decision is a cabinet decision. There is no ambiguity in those terms. We have already discussed that. A decision made in the minister's office is a minister's decision and a departmental decision.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

We are trying to translate the word, but I am concerned. If voters see that they don't understand this, they will never vote for them.

I didn't have the floor, I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'll add your name if you like.

Madame Faille, I have you on the list. Was it to make that point?

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I just want to clear up the problem with the confusion. I was a senior public servant. I have drafted memoranda to cabinet as an official dealing with programs. They were departmental decisions. They are the responsibility of the department and cover everything up to deputy minister level. In order to remove any ambiguity, some departments use “memorandum to the deputy minister” and “memorandum to the minister” in order to show that there really are two levels. When you talk about a “departmental decision”, you really are talking about a decision made by the officials.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

I would like to know the analysts' opinion about the clarification that Ms. Faille has just provided.

[Nicolas Auclair]

Naturally, I would not presume to dispute the opinion that Ms. Faille has just put forward. Unlike her, I have not worked in that area. I have never submitted a memorandum to cabinet. For our part, we relied on Mr. Walsh's testimony, that concurs perfectly with what the hon. member said. I cannot offer an opinion on its validity. But I do have the transcript and it reflects the same view.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Are we satisfied about where we are with the wording?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Madame Faille was very helpful in explaining something to help me understand. These are technical terms, so it's not just language, it's a jargon issue.

I had initially proposed a wording change, but I wasn't sure if Mr. Blaney was proposing an amendment to it that would adjust the wording in the French to say ministérielle. Is that what was happening? Are we voting on those, or are they going to be separate amendments? Are we doing both now as one, or are we going to have separate...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'll take them as being the same, because by making it “departmental” in English, the right change would have to happen to go with that en français. So I think we would accomplish both with one change.

Is there further discussion on that?

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chair, you're talking about the one change to “administrative”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

In English, the change to me is striking the word “administrative” and putting in the word “departmental”.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

I have concerns about the words “political decision” prior to that. I don't want to interfere in the vote, but I do want to discuss that, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We'll change “departmental” first by vote, and if you want to then discuss “political decision”, I guess we can.

Monsieur Laframboise.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I just want to say that we cannot take words out of Mr. Walsh's mouth. If he said “political”, he said “political”, whether we like it or not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We moved to “departmental” because we discovered those were the words he used in English. If we're now going to quote him verbatim, exactly, we probably can't go back and change other words he used. I would suggest that.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

I can tell you what he used. I have it right here--between “political” and “ministerial”. But you want to vote on this first.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It's between “political” and “departmental”, not “political” and “ministerial”.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

I see--the ministerial decision that is political.

Is this helpful, Chair? I don't want to interrupt.

He refers to ministerial decision that is political, so he equates them. He defines “political” as “ministerial”, so my suggestion is to use the word “ministerial” because “political” has a hundred different meanings in this place. In general, “political” can mean a whole range of things. It's used in a derogatory manner, a factual manner, and in a whole lot of different ways.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

So you're suggesting the sentence would read:

Mr. Walsh asserted that a distinction must be made between a ministerial decision and a departmental one, even if the minister alone is responsible to Parliament.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Yes. I think that's truer to what he actually said.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Reid, on that point on changing the word “political” to “ministerial”....

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I'm assuming that Mr. Young is effectively trying to make an amendment to my amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

No, you're on “departmental”. He's in a different place. But you could do it--or the whole sentence.