Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 29th, 2012

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you for that.

I would just point out that I have to challenge you a little bit on the fact that you said that if they had an incorrect address a candidate wouldn't be able to contact the voter. That's not quite true. We contact by phone, and we could certainly track down a voter, but the address is something that--

[Marc Mayrand]

But we don't have phone numbers, so those phone numbers are not coming from Elections Canada.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I think most candidates and campaign offices are able to find those phone numbers on their own.

[Marc Mayrand]

I think it's an important aspect of it. I recognize that fully. I think there are always issues when you try to integrate data from different sources.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you very much.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You have two minutes left, sir.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Since your report is saying basically that the final investigation won't be concluded for some time and you won't be able to report on your findings for some time, the one thing that we do know is that a misleading call did happen in Guelph. The Liberal candidate, Mr. Valeriote, has already reported that his campaign made some misleading phone calls to voters. A woman used a fake name, Laurie McDonald, a fake address, and fake phone number, and she didn't identify herself as a representative of Mr. Valeriote's campaign.

Now Mr. Valeriote has made public comments saying that he had contacted your office and that in effect you had signed off on the phone calls, saying that there was really nothing unacceptable about them. To me that seems very strange. Can you confirm whether or not you had given Mr. Valeriote a sign that those phone calls were acceptable? Because he certainly indicated publicly that he got that information from your office.

[Marc Mayrand]

We don't—and the Elections Act does not—really regulate the content of messages, and we certainly don't pre-approve messages by political parties.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I'm not talking about pre-approval. Mr. Valeriote apparently said he contacted your office after admitting that they'd made these misleading phone calls, and he asked whether or not they were acceptable under elections law, and you said that they were.

[Marc Mayrand]

I'm not aware that there has been any ruling on this matter. Again, as is so publicly known, there have been two complaints lodged on this matter with the commissioner, and the commissioner is looking into it.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

In your opinion, then, is it against elections law to make a phone call of that sort without identifying that you're representing a particular candidate?

[Marc Mayrand]

That's an interesting aspect. Again, the Elections Act does not cover these matters as such. The Elections Act deals with advertising, deals with expenses, and requires that any advertising be linked to a tag line reflecting that it has been authorized by the official agents of the candidate. Now, the question that will arise is whether a phone message such as the one that you describe constitutes advertising under the Elections Act, and if it does, it would necessarily mean that a tag line should be attached. But that's why I want to come back to the committee later on, because the act is far from clear on these matters.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

So—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Excuse me, Mr. Lukiwski, I'm going to have to stop you there.

Mr. Christopherson, seven minutes, please.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that.

Thank you, Mr. Mayrand, for your attendance today.

Let me say at the outset that we've had a couple of experiences where agents of Parliament have not lived up to the standard that we had hoped. I just want to commend you for your role as an agent of Parliament in reaching out and asking the committee, and asking Parliament, if you could come forward on an issue that was clearly in the public domain, very controversial. You offered to come here and said that you needed to give an update to Parliament to let us know what was going on, to give us an opportunity to ask you any questions. I just want to compliment you on your public duty in doing that. To me, that is the kind of performance we like to see from our agents of Parliament. Thank you for that.

I know you're very limited as to what you can say, which limits what we can ask, if you will, but I'll ask anyway and accept the fact that you're going to say me, “I can only tell you what time it is.”

My question is this. There's a little more information in the public domain about Guelph than about any other particular location. Can you give us a sense of whether or not you see any linkages? Is this the same file to you? Are they separate files? Are the issues similar?

Can you speak to that at all, Mr. Mayrand?

[Marc Mayrand]

As I pointed out in my presentation, more information is available around the Guelph matter because of court documents that are public. From the point of view of the commissioner from Elections Canada, we're looking at all the complaints that are sent to us. We assess each of those complaints on their own merit.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. I think I've just run into the very issue I'd predicted I would run into. I accept that as a limitation of where we are.

Let me ask you about the 800 number. How does that number compare with other elections?

[Marc Mayrand]

Well, that's only part of the complaints we got in relation to the 41st general election. I submitted a report to Parliament earlier on, pointing out the number of complaints that we received in total. I don't have the exact number in mind right now, but it's in that earlier report.

The other thing I would caution is that a single incident.... I remember that in the last GE, an interview that was done with a well-known candidate on polling day generated 700 complaints by itself. We ruled that there were no irregularities there.

So I think we have to be careful about those numbers.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay.

Could you speak to us about the threshold you would need to pass in order to declare--or go to the courts, or recommend, whatever the process is--a new election, a byelection...the threshold for charges? And is there any circumstance in which a general election in total can be declared null and void? I mean, it's extreme, but what are the circumstances?

Are any of the issues we're dealing with anything remotely as serious as that, at this point in your investigation?

[Marc Mayrand]

On the threshold for investigation, there are maybe three parts to your question, as I understand it.

In terms of investigation, I must stress that these are penal investigations. They have to meet the standards of criminal law in terms of fairness, due process, and the various fundamental rights that are provided by the charter. Of course there's the burden of evidence, which is beyond reasonable doubt.

In terms of challenging election results, this is a matter for the court. Any elector can bring a matter before the court to ask for the annulment or contest the result of an election as long as it is within 30 days of when the elector became aware of the facts or reasons for disputing the election. The elector has to determine or show that the results were affected by the circumstances being brought before the court.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

Can you give us an indication of whether or not there are other ridings, besides Guelph specifically, you're looking at that you can mention today?

[Marc Mayrand]

I can tell you that the 800 or so complaints cut across pretty much the whole country. So if you ask me, it's ten provinces and one territory.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

And are the complaints similar in nature, sir?

[Marc Mayrand]

Specific allegations regarding various types of phone calls—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Given that, how likely is it that it's one rogue person who would be behind this?