Evidence of meeting #48 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was loans.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Mayrand  Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I call the meeting to order. We are in public today with our Chief Electoral Officer, Monsieur Mayrand.

Welcome. It's great to have you here.

We're here pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, October 2, for Bill C-21, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act.

Our witnesses today are all from Elections Canada, and we have a two-hour session with lots of questions, I hope.

Monsieur Mayrand, I'd like you to lead off and introduce the guests with you today. We'll have lots of questions for you after you're finished.

11 a.m.

Marc Mayrand Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am pleased to appear before your committee today to contribute to your review of Bill C-21. Appearing with me are, on my far right, Sylvain Dubois, recently appointed to the position of Deputy Chief Electoral Officer, Political Financing. To my immediate right is Stéphane Perrault, Deputy Chief Electoral Officer, Legal Services, Compliance and Investigations. To my left is François Bernier, the outgoing Deputy Chief Electoral Officer, Political Financing.

Bill C-21 builds on the 2004 and 2007 political financing reforms by seeking to curtail the undue influence that can arise from loans to political entities. To do so, it proposes a series of three measures. First, it provides that only individuals, financial institutions, and political entities authorized to transfer funds under the act, may make loans to political entities.

Furthermore, in the case of individuals, it places a $1,200 overall limit on contributions, loans, guarantees and suretyships. Furthermore, it requires the provision of more detailed information on such loans. Lastly, it makes electoral district associations or, if none exist, the political party, liable for candidate loans that are written off by the lender.

It requires the association or the parties to assume the liability for repaying these loans as if they had guaranteed them. Although the principle of the bill is laudable, I must, at the outset, note that the measures proposed raise a number of concerns.

First of all, the bill proposes an overly complex regime that will be very difficult to apply for political entities and their supporters. Second, the proposed regime does not succeed in adequately eliminating loopholes to the political financing rules. Lastly, the bill does not bring closure to the management of political entities' finances.

I would like, as a first step, to expand on these three concerns, which are actually closely interrelated. I will then speak to the elements that, in my opinion, should form the basis of a more effective reform.

First, I would like to express my concerns regarding the complexity of the proposed regime and the increased regulatory burden it would impose on all stakeholders, whether these be political entities, those wanting to provide loans and make contributions, or even Elections Canada, which would need to administer the regime.

This complexity arises mainly from one specific feature of the proposed regime, namely the method of calculating the limit on individual loans, guarantees and contributions. Under the bill, all loans, guarantees and contributions made by an individual cannot exceed, at any time during a calendar year, that individual's contribution limit. Excluded from this calculation are the amounts of a loan that were repaid during the year in which the loan was issued, as well as the amounts for which the individual has ceased to be liable in the year the guarantee was given.

This will create considerable uncertainty for political entities, as they will need to determine, at any given moment, whether an individual's limit has been reached. The amount of allowable loans and contributions will fluctuate over the course of the calendar year, depending on the amounts that have been given, repaid or loaned. This situation will be even more complex when limits are for contributions and loans made to a “family of entities” during a calendar year (for example, all of a party's candidates, nomination contestants and registered associations).

This level of complexity is equally problematic for both political entities and individuals wishing to provide them with financial support. There is also a risk that this would lead to a proliferation of cases of non-compliance and create an incentive to find ways to circumvent the rules. And that is my second concern.

By limiting loans of more than $1,200 to financial institutions, the regime seeks to curtail the influence of individuals who finance political entities through loans, and to eliminate the use of loans as a means to skirt contribution limits. That being said, since the bill in no way affects credit sales, an individual could sidestep the new rules on loans by becoming a supplier of goods and services. For instance, while no longer able to lend $10,000 to the campaign, an individual or the candidate himself or herself would still be able to acquire goods and then sell them on credit to the campaign. This transaction would not be governed by the new restrictions on loans.

I also note, unlike the current provisions dealing with contributions, that nothing in the bill specifically prevents loans from being funnelled through other individuals. In addition, in order to be effective, the regime should bring closure to the management of political entities' finances by precluding the possibility of loans remaining unpaid for extended periods. However, and this is my third concern, the bill does not allow for this closure to be achieved.

As I already pointed out, the bill proposes a new provision whereby the registered association or, if there is none, the candidate's political party would assume liability for the unpaid portion of the candidate's loan that has been written off by the creditor. I welcome this type of measure. Unfortunately, it is too often missing from the current law, which is based almost entirely on criminal sanctions. The intent is to ensure compliance with the new three-year statutory deadline for candidates to repay their loans, but we must point out that the riding associations or the parties may only become liable for the unpaid loans of candidates and not for those of leadership contestants or nomination contestants.

In addition, that liability will take effect only in cases where a loan is written off, but not in all cases of loan default within the statutory deadline. It is difficult to predict the likelihood of loans being written off so as to trigger the liability of the electoral district association, or EDA. For the 39th and 40th general elections, according to the information reported by candidates after the 18-month statutory period, none of the $2.6 million in unpaid loans was written off by a creditor. This was also the case for the remaining $1 million in other unpaid claims.

Furthermore, the proposed regime for loans would latch onto the existing, and significantly flawed, regime for unpaid claims. I pointed out these flaws in my June 2010 recommendations report. This remains a complex and cumbersome regime that affords neither transparency nor closure.

The authorizations currently provided for to pay beyond the statutory deadline are largely unnecessary, except to allow the Chief Electoral Officer to impose as a condition the requirement to report financing sources and thus address certain shortcomings in the existing statutory regime. Currently, a candidate or leadership contestant who pays campaign debts after the filing of his return, but before the end of the statutory period, is not required to file an amended or updated return disclosing the source of funds.

Also, the current provision whereby a claim that remains outstanding after 18 months is deemed to be a contribution is a major source of confusion. Adopted at a time when the law did not limit contribution sources or amounts, this deeming entails no civil, administrative, or penal consequences. Deemed contributions do not, in and of themselves, entail a violation of the rules on contributions. Enforcement of the contribution rules and the imposition of criminal sanctions requires an assessment based on the facts of each case. They cannot simply stem from the mechanical application of a statutory fiction.

By continuing to subject loans to the flawed regime governing unpaid claims, Bill C-21 serves only to perpetuate these difficulties.

Even in the unlikely event that a riding association were made liable for a loan written off by the creditor, the unpaid claims regime would offer no reasonable guarantee that these loans would be repaid with diligence by the association.

These concerns lead me to suggest broad strokes of what I view as more effective legislative reform. First of all, such a reform must address not just loans, but also rules governing unpaid claims. Some of the key elements for reform can be found in my June 2010 recommendations report, while others are already part of Bill C-21; however, they should not be enacted piecemeal, independently of one another.

On the one hand, we must simplify the regime of unpaid claims by eliminating the current presumptions and authorization mechanisms. The law should also give the Chief Electoral Officer the power to obtain documents—as I recommended in 2010—and to examine entities that may have relevant information concerning a transaction. On the other hand, in order to ensure closure, political parties should be liable for repaying any outstanding claim, including any loan that remains outstanding after 36 months. This measure would be modelled after Bill C-21, while at the same time deviating from it in several respects.

First, parties should be liable for the outstanding debts of all their affiliated entities, with the possible exception of leadership contestants. Second, the parties should be liable, whatever the reasons or circumstance, for the payment default. Moreover, the parties should have a relatively short period—for example, six months—in which to pay the outstanding debt; otherwise the sum would fall due to the Receiver General and could be deducted from the public financing given to the party.

To be effective, political loan reform should also propose rules that are simple enough to be understood and followed by both the political entities and the electors supporting them. In this respect, I think it is absolutely essential to shelve the idea of a combined loans contribution limit for which implementation would fluctuate in step with repayments and contributions made. One solution would be to follow Ontario's lead and do away with individual loans, since the benefit the political entities would derive would be, for all intents and purposes, dwarfed by the severe regulatory burden imposed on them.

If individual loans must be allowed, they should be subject to a limit that is separate from the contribution limit and, above all, applicable for one calendar year regardless of the amounts repaid during the year. This change could no doubt be made in the current bill, but I think a more in-depth revision is necessary, and I doubt that this could be done within the limited framework of this bill.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer any questions.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you very much.

We'll start with a seven-minute round.

Mr. Lukiwski.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Mayrand, for being here.

I think the chair is right, we're going to have a lot of questions. You've given us a lot of information to consider.

I note that your predecessor, Mr. Kingsley, had recommended to this committee back in 2007 that a number of changes be made to the loans regime, which we have done, and which are contained in Bill C-21. I hope you agree that those changes, generally speaking, address the concerns that Mr. Kingsley had. But I'd like to focus on one possible recommendation that you made. As opposed to individuals being allowed to contribute only up to their maximum contribution limit on a yearly basis, you felt that we might want to consider an exemption so that candidates could loan themselves any kind of money on a one-time basis.

I'd like to ask if you could clarify that, going into a little bit more detail. While one could certainly argue that this would violate the spirit of the individual contribution limits, a more serious consequence could be that if you had a particularly well-heeled candidate who was able to lend himself $5 million or more, he might not ever have to go and seek loans or contributions again, because this one-off loan would be sufficient to run his entire leadership contest.

So my questions to you would be: do you still feel this would be an appropriate qualification to put into this bill, and if so, what should the limits be on a candidate loaning himself money?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Marc Mayrand

I think there are two ways to go in this regard: the Ontario model, which prohibits loans entirely, or, alternatively, I think we need to recognize that candidates need a bit of seed money when they launch their campaigns.

Our data shows that about $4,000 is the loan needed for a candidate. That allows them to set up their office and get going. I think it's important also to note—so $4,000 or an amount of that nature may be a matter for consideration.

The other thing we should not lose sight of is that repayment has to come from legitimate contributions. I think that would provide better accessibility for candidates.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you for that. So you're not talking about allowing unlimited money—

11:15 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Marc Mayrand

Absolutely not.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

The other area I want to focus on before we go into some of your detailed recommendations is what we've seen currently. We've been focusing on the 2006 Liberal leadership campaign, because a number of those candidates still have outstanding loans, unpaid, and it's been going on slightly over six years now.

I know you've been quite critical because of the complexity and the unenforceability of the act we currently have to deal with, but to your knowledge, have there been any sanctions against a political entity or a leadership contestant for the refusal or the inability to repay loans after a certain period?

11:15 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Marc Mayrand

On the inability to repay in time, I'm not aware of any cases. It's interesting. What I hear is that for the 39th and 40th GEs, there are still significant amounts outstanding. We're talking about an election that took place five to six years ago, just as a matter of fact.

The issue we're facing is that, yes, the act provides a statutory period for repayment. However, the next provision in the statute, which is repeated in the bill, is that the period no longer applies when there's been an extension made either by the Chief Electoral Officer or by the court.

When the Chief Electoral Officer is seized of a request for an extension, our approach is to see whether there's a desire to pay, whether it's desirable that the claims or the loan be reimbursed, and whether, again, it would better serve transparency. If those extensions are turned down, one thing that would happen is that you lose sight of what's going on with those loans. There's no requirement to file returns after that point. So that makes it a little complex to administer.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you for that. I understand, and I think you're right.

In your earlier intervention to us you said, “First, parties should be liable for the outstanding debts of all of their affiliated entities, with the possible exception of leadership contestants.” Now, to me, it would seem that if we want to clean up the system and ensure that all loans are repaid in a timely fashion, it should apply to leadership contestants as well as candidates.

Why are you suggesting that we might want to make an exception for leadership contestants?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Marc Mayrand

My hesitation there is that there's a general principle in the act that the party must treat all contestants in the same manner. I'm not sure how to resolve the issue where a leadership contestant would have higher loans. I think we need to look more broadly at how the financing for a leadership contest takes place.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

It's quite obvious that each political party sets their own rules for leadership contests—

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

However, we're talking about the big picture: the potential abuse of the electoral system. So whether it's a leadership contest or whether it's a general election or a byelection, whatever, if a candidate or a leadership contestant is representing a particular political party, either through candidacy in a GE or through a leadership contest, would you not agree that we have the ability to amend the act to ask those leadership contestants to follow the same rules as a candidate would?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Marc Mayrand

One of the suggestions I put forward in 2010—and that's for the consideration of the committee—is whether a candidate who has failed to reimburse debts from a previous election should be allowed to run in the next one. That could be an effective remedy to ensure that, again, candidates do not carry debt loads from election to election. There may also be other options in that regard.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you, Mr. Lukiwski.

Madame Latendresse, for seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Alexandrine Latendresse NDP Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Mayrand. It is very interesting to hear your opinion. It gives us cause to reflect on how useful committees like this are.

I want to go back to what Mr. Lukiwski was saying about leadership campaigns. Among the recommendations your predecessor made in 2007, there was a mention of an upper limit to spending during a party's leadership race. But that is not part of Bill C-21.

Do you think it should be included in the Canada Elections Act?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Marc Mayrand

It is always possible, but we have to decide to what extent we want to regulate a party's internal affairs. That is a public policy decision that belongs to parliamentarians, in my view.

In the past, we have always been hesitant to consider those measures because they put constraints on the parties' internal management. However, perhaps the time has come to look at matters like that.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Alexandrine Latendresse NDP Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Okay.

In terms of the combined ceiling, could you tell us what you would see as the ideal solution? Your explanation was really very clear. You said that the system proposed in Bill C-21 makes the process much too complicated if it combines loans, gifts and so on.

What would you recommend as a priority? What is the ideal solution? Doing away with it entirely?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Marc Mayrand

As I mentioned, we can take good ideas from various models. There are several in the country. We can simply ban loans to individuals, or, as I said earlier, we could consider it normal to allow a candidate to borrow enough money to launch his campaign—with a limited ceiling, of course.

Earlier, I mentioned $4,000 or $5,000. That is about the average amount of a loan to launch a candidate's campaign. The amount could be different. We would have to see what an analysis would show.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Alexandrine Latendresse NDP Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

In Bill C-21, loans have to be guaranteed by individuals. For example, if someone wants to get a $10,000 loan from a financial institution, he has to find 10 people to guarantee it for $1,000 each.

Do you think that is a good idea, or do you think that we should continue to let people guarantee their own loans?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Marc Mayrand

The problem is that we would be moving away from the objective of the bill, which is to limit the influence of individuals or companies on the operation of the electoral process. Yet in Ontario, there are no limits on guarantees, even if they are provided by corporations or unions.

It could be looked at, but I think that would be moving some distance away from the objective of the bill, which is to limit the influence of money. In my opinion, if we allow guarantees to be unlimited, we would be indirectly permitting the very thing we wanted to directly prohibit.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Alexandrine Latendresse NDP Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Scott—