Evidence of meeting #64 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commission.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Goguen  Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, CPC

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'd like to call us into session, please. It is 11 o'clock. We are here for our study on redistribution.

We have the great province of New Brunswick today and a couple of witnesses in our first panel.

We will have bells again at around 11:20 a.m., and I'd like to finish this panel by then. Committee, please help me out with that and keep your questions short and succinct.

Members, you have five minutes each, if you'd like, for an opening statement. Please try not to use it all if you don't need it.

Mr. Allen, Mr. Williamson, it's great to have you here today.

Please start, Mr. Allen.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to colleagues and members of the committee for allowing us to be here today to present.

Given the nature of this, I find the word “objection” might be a little bit strong, but I guess that's the word we have to use on the filing of the committee. I just want to give my kudos to the committee and the boundaries commission for New Brunswick on what a great job they did.

My objection is being filed based on two major things. One is on a change in the boundary that resulted from the time when the original proposal was made to the time when the final proposal was made for one area of the riding. When the original proposal was made by the boundaries commission, it was going to be included in the riding of Tobique—Saint John River Valley, but after the final report came out, a section of it was taken out. That was not contemplated in the original proposal, nor was it even discussed in any of the public meetings as a result of that. That was the first thing.

The second thing—a little lesser—is the naming of the riding. I actually wrote a letter to the committee, and I'll just very briefly go through the two issues.

One is, if you look at appendix A, the area we're talking about, the first page of appendix A, is an area called Canterbury—North Lake, Canterbury Parish—Meductic. That area where the river is flowing is actually in the current riding of Tobique—Mactaquac.

In 2003, when electoral redistribution was done, this area was actually in the riding of New Brunswick Southwest. The boundaries commission at that time, through communities of interest and other reasons, said there was clearly a better economic tie, closer social ties, and closer family ties between this area and the Upper Saint John River Valley, which would include Woodstock, Grand Falls, and other areas in the riding of Tobique—Mactaquac. Hence the area was put into Tobique—Mactaquac. Then when the final boundary was proposed by the commission, the area was taken out.

Mr. Chair, when I actually saw the final boundaries commission report, I looked at it and said, those areas have been taken out. I went to the two local service district elected officials as well as the mayors and councils of the two municipalities involved—those being Canterbury and Meductic—and I told them about the presentation and what had actually happened in the final report. I asked them if they wanted me to make a representation to stay in Tobique—Mactaquac or move to New Brunswick Southwest, as proposed. I said I would not file an objection if they did not want me to. They did want me to do that. In the appendix in this presentation, there are also four letters of support—one from each of the municipalities as well as one from each of the local service districts—supporting staying in the riding of Tobique—Mactaquac. The net net of all this is that there are around 1,450 people, a population who are involved in roughly 1,000 square kilometres.

I've also included a table in the letter I sent to the committee, on page 4, where it shows what the change would be. Currently, under the population as proposed by the commission, Tobique—Mactaquac would be 7.91% below quotient, we would be 5.9% below, and New Brunswick Southwest would be 9.9% below and would become, approximately, 12% below.

I'll let Mr. Williamson speak to the geographic challenges he has on his.

A final point is with respect to the name, Mr. Chair. Given that the name was proposed, Tobique—Saint John River Valley, at a time when they were going to add an amount of territory including down below Fredericton, a naming change like that probably made sense. However, given that most of the characteristics of the riding have remained the same, I'm recommending that the Tobique—Mactaquac name remain.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Mr. Williamson, it's good to have you here.

March 7th, 2013 / 11:05 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you. It's great to be back.

It's different on this side. I must say that I do miss the committee, the issues as well as the camaraderie, on both sides.

I'll try to be brief here. First of all, I agree with Mr. Allen that the New Brunswick commission did a wonderful job in both its proposals and its public hearings. What was important was that they were, I believe, quite responsive to public input, making modifications based on what they heard after consulting with New Brunswick voters. I hope that trend will be the case after they review what has been said here today.

My purpose for being here is just to say that I agree with Mr. Allen. While I'd be pleased to represent and serve all constituents who are in New Brunswick Southwest or who end up in New Brunswick Southwest, it's my belief that this proposed change should be reversed, and for a couple of reasons.

I support what local representatives are saying regarding the gravitational pull. Whether it's the economics, the communities and families, and, as even I've discovered, the roads system, the area really does have a northern pull into Woodstock and points north.

While the Trans-Canada runs east-west at the northern end of my riding or district, and at the southern end of Mr. Allen's, for me to approach that really I am using country roads. While there are roads throughout the riding, those ones really are secondary, and throughout the winter are virtually impassable.

I think you would concur with that...? Yes.

The other point I'll raise very quickly is that of course my numbers would fall from about 9.9% off the average to 11.9%. So the numbers would fall, but the deviation rises to 11.9%.

I'd like to point out that in the very southern end of my riding I have what are known as the Fundy Isles. These are four islands. One, Grand Manan, the largest in the south, is a 90-minute ferry ride to and from the mainland each way. Another, Campobello, is tucked in on the left. I think I'm probably the only member of Parliament who has to drive through a foreign country to get to part of my riding nine months of the year. I have to cross through the state of Maine. While there is ferry service three months in the summer, it's a ferry first to Deer Island and then another ferry to Campobello.

I feel that while water is not included in the overall geographic calculation, it ought to be, because that water is no different from farming land. The men and women who live in the bay area work that water. They fish that water. It's territory that I have to cross relatively frequently to do my job representing them.

As rural members of Parliament—I think many of us have the same challenges—the thing we hear out on the road is “We haven't seen you in a while”. It's not for lack of effort, and it's not for lack of putting miles on the vehicle.

I'll leave it at that, because I know you are pressed for time and you're trying to get through some business.

I'll be happy to take some questions. Thank you for having me here.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

I'm suggesting that we have time for about four minutes from each.

Mr. Reid, you're first on this side. If you want to share with Mr. Lukiwski, that will work.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Okay.

Just to be clear, then, the municipalities under discussion are North Lake and Canterbury?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

The two municipalities are Canterbury and Meductic, and there are two parishes, North Lake and Canterbury.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

On the map I'm looking at, only two names are written in, but I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same thing. I just wanted that for the record.

You mentioned, Mr. Williamson, how your riding is now going past the 10% variation.

Mr. Allen, what happens to your riding in terms of population?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

The population would actually go up by about 1,450 people, based on the proposal, and it would go to about 5.97% below quotient.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

So you're also below quotient.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Yes.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

If I might just observe, it sounds to me...and I've seen this in a number of provinces I've looked through where I've found some oddities in boundaries. They seem to be connected to the commission having set up internal, although unstated, criteria that they, in this commission, will not go above or below x%.

It sounds like in New Brunswick they may have chosen 10%. I can't help but notice how close 9.9% is to 10%.

I mention this now because, while I'm assuming something that I don't know to be true, if it is the case, I'd like the members of the commission to deal with marginal cases like this with the full awareness that what they're doing is setting themselves a boundary. They should be conscious of whether that ought to, or ought not to, trump communities of interest.

I think your argument here would be that in this case it's a technical boundary, not of great importance, and that the community of interest would trump that very small variation.

Would that be a fair assessment?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

That would be fair, and at the same time we're talking about just two of us. There's no domino effect based on this, but also there's a significant riding geographically in New Brunswick called Miramichi, which is well below quotient as well, far beyond the 10%.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you for that.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Is there anything else, Mr. Reid?

Mr. Lukiwski, you have a couple of minutes if you want it.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Sure.

Let me just say, Mike, that I certainly concur, and I support your recommendation to retain the name you currently have, because as you and many of the members know, it's my favourite name in Parliament, to be able to stand up and say “the honourable member for Tobique—Mac-ta-quac”.

11:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

There's just something about that.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

I read your brief, and you said in the first map that was presented for public discussion by the boundaries commission they didn't have these changes in it, so therefore you didn't make a representation at the public hearings; you didn't feel there was a need. Can you explain to the committee why? Did the commission give a rationale as to why it made these changes after the fact, which were reversed in 2003 and were obviously opposed by you, Mr. Williamson, and most of the people of the riding?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

They said they used a community of interest argument. I'm trying to remember the exact wording of the report. However, that goes completely contrary to what was stated in 2003 as to the reason of moving them into Tobique—Mactaquac in the upper river valley, and hence why we wanted to add the four support letters in there as well.

The other thing that's important is that New Brunswick's system of governance with respect to municipalities and areas like that is a real challenge. There are local service districts and municipalities. Now they've set up 12 regional service commissions in New Brunswick, and these weren't necessarily the final boundaries in place before the commission reported. This area is in the new regional service commission that includes Woodstock, Hartland, Florenceville-Bristol, and up river. So everything is going to be planned with the up-river communities from an infrastructure standpoint and everything.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Thank you very much.

Mr. Cullen, be as tight as you can, please.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Yes, I'll try to keep it even shorter, so my friend who knows the region better might ask some questions.

Just to be clear, you're both under. We're talking about moving 1,450 people. That's what you said, Mr. Allen?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Yes.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

It would make one of you more under and one of you a little less under; essentially that's the effect we're looking at here.

Your point, John, about the water access and having to go through the States to get there.... Ryan Leef sometimes claims the Yukon is another country. I have to go through the Yukon to get into parts of my riding, but I think he may have the sole claim on the country.

How does that logistical aspect affect this decision? What is it to get around on these ferries? Are they frequent? Are they not? Is it a bit of a nightmare getting on and off these islands, or is it as simple as can be?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

It just consumes time. For Campobello, it's just a question of going through the border crossing into Maine, in through Canada, and then through Maine again and in through Canada.

Interestingly, this island is perhaps the only border station between the two countries that stayed open after 9/11. There are good relations on both sides, but still it requires a passport or a Nexus card. So it really is just a question of time. But you have lines at the border and things like this that you have to plan for. I suppose the point I was trying to make is that the water is just another obstacle. In New Brunswick, we all represent large rural ridings.