Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 23rd, 2013

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

In fact, that is what was proposed by the people of both ridings.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

A choice has to be made. We could not have the name "Soulanges" twice because people would go and vote in the wrong place. I would prefer to avoid that kind of confusion. My suggestion is "Salaberry—Suroît".

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

In fact, my colleague from Vaudreuil—Soulanges proposes "Vaudreuil—Soulanges—Est". So that would probably be "Suroît—Soulanges—Ouest" or "Salaberry—Soulanges—Ouest". However, we would have to represent the will of the people who introduced resolutions.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

All right, but I would prefer that the word "Soulanges" not be used twice, even if the words "est" or "ouest" were added. I would like to avoid that. However, if you think this is an important point, I will understand, but I do not think that is the case. We generally avoid having two adjacent electoral districts that bear the same name, except in the case of a large urban area such as Calgary Centre-North or Calgary West.

Mr. Nicholls, was the proposal you are making to us presented to the commission? In fact, I am surprised that it was not made as part of your own submission to this committee.

I am talking about the three municipalities, Mr. Chair.

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

It can be seen from the record of the public consultations that I spoke firmly in favour of the status quo. We saw the changes proposed in the commission's report. I did not send the proposal to repatriate those three municipalities to the commission, but I did submit the request to the commission following the consultations.

It is difficult to decide which municipalities should remain in the riding I currently represent. It was really while musing during snow storms and winter activities that I realized those three municipalities truly belonged to the electoral district of Vaudreuil—Soulanges.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

You thought about the subject, but did you get popular support? Did a lot of people speak out in Vaudreuil—Soulanges?

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

The mayor of Sainte-Justine-de-Newton was one of the loudest voices among those who wanted to keep the name Soulanges and to maintain the status quo. The cities, particularly the village cores in those three municipalities, are something separate. People in the rural areas try to create village cores separate from the other cities in the south of the riding. They have a sense of belonging, especially to the municipality of Rigaud and Mont Rigaud. That is why we would like to include them in the electoral district of Vaudreuil—Soulanges, .

Does that answer your question?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Yes, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Aubin, really quickly; we have about a minute left.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I have two or three brief questions. The first is for Ms. Raynault.

I understood from your presentation that there is massive support from the Atikamekw community. Is that support reflected in the general community of Joliette, ? Does it want to retain that part of the territory?

[Francine Raynault, NDP, Joliette, QC]

Yes. I often spoke with people and told them that Manawan could be another electoral district. They prefer that it remain part of the riding of Joliette. Some 50 families live in Joliette. Children come to Joliette. We are used to seeing them in the community. They have a friendship centre and go to the hospital in Joliette. The Joliette community is definitely ready to keep them.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

I have a brief question for Mr. Nicholls.

Would repatriating those three cities to your riding enhance the cohesiveness of the RCMs in any way?

[Jamie Nicholls, NDP, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I think so. The RCM of Vaudreuil—Soulanges would like to keep the 23 municipalities under the same roof. The commission's new proposal includes two new municipalities that were not previously there: Les Cèdres and Pointe-des-Cascades. Transferring three other municipalities back would be a good thing, according to the RCM of Vaudreuil—Soulanges.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

I have finished.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming today. Thank you for your presentations and for the information you have sent us.

We'll suspend for a minute while we change panels.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'll call members back to order.

We have new guests.

Madame Mourani, it's great to have you here today. Monsieur Dion, it's great to have you at the end of the table today.

Let's get started. Madame Mourani, are you prepared to go first?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Well, no....

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Okay, Monsieur Dion.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

I would suggest Madame Mourani go first because there are few objections.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Okay, there you go. We're...[Inaudible—Editor]...the commission.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Was that your whole five minutes, Monsieur Dion? Madame Mourani, would you like to proceed?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I am going to use my documents to make my presentation.

First of all, I would like to thank all of you for welcoming me and for agreeing to hear the voice of the people of Ahuntsic. The boundaries recently proposed by the commission came as a big surprise to the people of Ahuntsic. Local elected representatives, who are directly concerned, and the citizens of Ahuntsic reacted strongly.

In our view, this is a sociological, historical and human aberration. As presented, the proposal breaks up our community and strips it of its political weight. When I say our community, I mean of course the community of Ahuntsic. This redistribution has caused a great deal of anger.

Let us talk about the history of Ahuntsic ward. I would like to show you some maps and to present Ahuntsic ward to you. Look at the one on your left, Mr. Chair. It is Ahuntsic ward. It does not include the Bordeaux section.

Historically, Ahuntsic ward developed from Sault-au-Récollet. In 1615, Father Joseph Le Caron and Samuel de Champlain stopped at the Rivière des Prairies, took the aboriginal portage trail and celebrated the first mass on Montreal Island. In 1625, we see the Recollet Nicolas Viel, a French missionary, and his Ahuntsic companion, a young Frenchman, who drowned in the river. That place, this part, bore the name Sault-au-Récollet. This is the village of Ahuntsic. This municipality was founded in 1897 based on the parish of Sault-au-Récollet.

So you will understand why a municipal councillor there reacted sharply and sent you a letter, Mr. Chair, in which he railed against the fact that Sault-au-Récollet had completely disappeared from Ahuntsic. It was completely torn away from Ahuntsic and transferred to the electoral district of Bourassa. I will read you a sentence on the subject: "Furthermore, the proposal that you are making to change the boundaries of the electoral district of Ahuntsic would add insult to injury." Why did he write that? Because a very small part of Sault-au-Récollet is currently part of the riding of Bourassa. People would have expected it to be transferred back to the electoral district of Ahuntsic instead. You also have a letter from Quebec's minister of immigration and cultural communities and member for Crémazie, explaining to you as well that she objects to the redistribution and advancing numerous arguments, including historical arguments.

The map of Ahuntsic ward is currently used by the United Way, which of course acknowledges the actual communities in the territories. Our Solidarité Ahuntsic issue table is a major association in our ward involving hundreds of members, community organizations, institutions and citizens of Ahuntsic who are also opposed to this redistribution. I will cite a sentence on this point from their letter: "And without any exaggeration on our part, we run the risk of striking our community from the map."

Let us get straight to the point. The major problem with this redistribution as it concerns Ahuntsic, the heart of the matter, if you will, is that the commission has chosen to give special treatment to the electoral district of Saint-Laurent to the detriment of Ahuntsic, a rare and unusual case, as the commission confirms in its report. It says this, and I quote: "...note that the Saint-Laurent electoral district, on the Island of Montréal, received special treatment...."

The commission knows perfectly well that the electoral district of Saint-Laurent, as redistributed, has a smaller population than the average population of all the electoral districts. It justifies its decision on the ground that there will be future demographic growth there. It bases its analysis on data from the electoral district of Saint-Laurent and does not take into account those from Ahuntsic. It is making a bet and engaging in speculation.

However, I have received a letter from the Corporation de développement économique communautaire Ahuntsic-Cartierville, which argues that Ahuntsic is currently undergoing a demographic boom. It provides a non-exhaustive list of residential projects being considered or implemented and adds that that list does not include the floor space of commercial buildings that we have in the Chabanel area. An area of 13 million square feet is still under pressure for residential development. For example, we have 125 Chabanel, which will soon be welcoming more than 250 residents. Consequently, we can easily estimate the number of new households in five years at more than 2,000.

Mr. Chair, today we are making the same request as we made to the commission. Since no new electoral district has been added to Montreal, I ask that we simply maintain the status quo for Ahuntsic.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Monsieur Dion, would you like to add something?

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The first thing I would like to say is that we are very pleased that the commission has listened to Quebeckers. Its first proposal caused a lot of problems. Its second is very well received.

The requests being made are generally for minor adjustments or name changes. On the Island of Montreal, there have been no challenges from any members whatever, and everyone is satisfied, with the honourable exception of our colleague from Ahuntsic. As you will see, the changes requested are only name changes. I share in that satisfaction. It was a genuine feat to bring together all the members from the Island of Montreal, except one, and the commission did it.

In the brief I submitted to you, I cite examples showing why the commission's proposal improves the situation on the Island of Montreal relative to the status quo. In many cases, it reunites communities that were divided. In other cases, it creates divisions that make more sense, that are more logical. So it is really an improvement. We should definitely not return to the status quo.

As for my riding, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, I would have liked to keep Saint-Laurent and Cartierville together. I am honoured to be the member for those two very distinct communities. That will not impress my colleagues who come from more rural areas and must deal with some 40 communities, but I have two. Having had to fight for a sports centre in Saint-Laurent, we could not tell the people of Cartierville that they should just go to the one in Saint-Laurent; they would not have accepted that. We had to fight to get one in Cartierville. So these are two very different communities.

However, what happened is that Saint-Laurent has experienced outstanding demographic growth. Every place experiences demographic growth, but no place on the Island of Montreal has had growth comparable to that of Saint-Laurent. In 10 years, the number of inhabitants increased 17% from 77,381 to 93,842. Today that makes my riding, which now has 117,950 residents, the most highly populated on the Island of Montreal. It exceeds the provincial quota of some 101,300 by 16%.

So I did not appear before the commission to request the status quo; the effort would have been wasted. The commission was very clear: it did not want to exceed a variance of plus or minus 10%. When it made exceptions, it could not be in urban areas. They were very clear about urban areas: they wanted to keep the variance within 10%. My colleagues will understand that that is entirely reasonable since it is what the commissions of the other provinces have done. In fact, the target for those of Manitoba and Alberta was to keep variances within 5%, not 10%, for all of Manitoba and Alberta, an objective that they essentially achieved.

Consequently, it was unrealistic to request a positive variance of 16% for the Island of Montreal. No one should suggest that Cartierville should stay in Saint-Laurent; the commission will say no. With a heavy heart, I must give up Cartierville, which represents 24,000 residents. The logic that the commission has followed is to include them in Ahuntsic, since those people are already together from a municipal standpoint. Cartierville, Bordeaux and Ahuntsic together form a borough. So that is what will be done.

As regards the demographic variances, Saint-Laurent has roughly 94,000 inhabitants, which corresponds to a variance of -7% from the established quota, but it is experiencing strong growth. I repeat: growth is ongoing, and 2,000 inhabitants are being added every year. The cranes are there. This is not a project that is being challenged because of excessive densification or anything, as we see elsewhere, including in Ahuntsic. The cranes are there; building is under way. All of Bois-Franc is under construction, as the mayor has confirmed. And if the commission concludes that the growth in Saint-Laurent is exceptional, then believe me it has done its job.

I believe my five minutes are up. I would also simply like to say that the proposal to cut Papineau makes a great deal of sense. This is a major division of that place. No serious opposition is mobilizing against that idea; I would challenge that statement.