Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 9th, 2013

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Madame Latendresse.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Preston.

I thank both of you for your comments. It has been enlightening. I think your proposals are rather clear.

My first questions are for Mr. Adler.

I'm a little concerned about what you just said, that that people went and couldn't be heard. It's the first time we’ve heard something like that in the committee.

I think the proposal you made today is logical. We want something that is very close to the quotient. Your proposal would bring the two ridings closer to the electoral quotient. You have the support of the community as well as the two members of Parliament.

Could you tell us why the commission decided to transfer this part of your riding to the riding of Willowdale?

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I don't know what their reasoning was.

However, it's quite clear that they were not aware of the demographics of the riding, understandably so. As I indicated earlier, when our representative went to present, I understand there were a lot of objections that day and I guess they were just overwhelmed and didn't commit enough time. Our representatives couldn't be heard. Even during that process, our objections to a community of interest in particular weren't made apparent to them when they went into their second round of redrawing the boundaries. So there was no change as a result.

In terms of community of interest, the argument, I think you'll agree, is very compelling. Population is also very compelling, I would think, because it brings both within the desired number.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

As a Russian speaker myself, I'm happy to read those letters and to be in support of the Russian Canadians in your riding.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you. You'll have to visit York Centre.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Sullivan, do you know approximately how many people would be affected by the proposed change to add a part to your riding?

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

According to the census, it's a little over 30,000 people.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

And your riding right now has how many people?

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

In the proposal, we are already over the quotient. We are at 114,000, so it would put us way, way over.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

That would mean that your riding would exceed the quotient by a lot.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Absolutely. It would be the largest in Ontario.

[Alexandrine Latendresse, NDP, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Basically that was my question. I know Mr. Cullen has some questions as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Cullen, go ahead.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Sullivan, I want to talk about the process a bit because this is an unusual thing for the committee as well.

The submission by an MP of a substantial change and then his not testifying has put you, I would suggest, and maybe this committee, in an awkward position, because we don't have the arguments on the other side as to why such a big change would be required.

I'm trying to understand what the impact would be if the commission went ahead and listened to Mr. Oliver's suggestions. Were those suggestions made at any point in the process up until now?

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

As far as we can tell, there were never any written or oral submissions from Mr. Oliver to this effect, or to any effect, regarding his riding.

In the commission's process, the first time that we became aware of it was from the letter written to the clerk. It's not dated, so I'm not exactly sure when it was sent to the clerk. I'm assuming that's the only document. The chair did say there was a submission from Mr. Oliver, so I don't know if there's a second document, but I have not seen a second document.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The domino effect you talked about is something that this committee is also seized with, because what we will essentially do is to report what you have told us today. Mr. Adler has made some arguments about communities of interest and the committee will likely see those communities of interest and report that to the electoral boundaries commission.

Mr. Sullivan, with your case, and with Mr. Oliver's case, which has now implicated you, the challenge will be for the committee to decide under what basis we should support or give much acknowledgment to the idea of a 30,000-person shift from one electoral boundary group to another, and what the implications would be in the cascade across the other parts of Toronto.

You said something in your testimony about having to rewrite the map of Toronto—at least that end of Toronto. To move 30,000 is a big move. What would be the implications for south York Centre or any other ridings adjacent to the impacts if Mr. Oliver's suggestions were taken in?

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

I can't predict what the impacts would be, but I can't imagine that it would be left, that the riding I represent in an urban area, with its significant growth potential, would somehow now be at 138% and growing, without there being some easement somewhere.

So that easement requires—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Right, so that Etobicoke Centre be involved.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

—a shift to York Centre, Etobicoke North, Etobicoke Centre, Davenport, and Trinity—Spadina, all of which abut my riding. The abutments to my riding are at hard physical boundaries: the Humber River, the 401 highway, railroad tracks to the east, and railroad tracks to the south. By their very existence, these are dividers of communities of interest.

There are very few places where you can cross any of those boundaries. Unlike the Allen Road, which Mr. Oliver suggests is a natural boundary and has roads across it all the way down its length so that there is plenty of connection between those two communities, there is virtually no connection between the piece he would like to hive off and my riding.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I hope Mr. Oliver affords himself the opportunity to come and testify, as you two and many others have done, because as it stands, it's hard to.... These are all about justifications and the committee is trying to understand what the rationale is to recommend change.

Mr. Adler has made I think a pretty substantive case and has talked to the member from Willowdale. Is that right, Mr. Adler?

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

That's right.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

And has his support.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Absolutely.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Those are the things the committee is looking for, and the letters of support from various interest groups.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Chair.