Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 9th, 2014

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It just strikes me that we're going around in circles. We're not trusting people, and the example you have brought to the table just shows that if we trust people.... Where is the evidence? Do you see any evidence that people are more likely to commit fraud on voting day than they were when they opened bank accounts with you?

[Nathan Allen]

You mentioned results that I knew of. As manager, I know there has not been any case of falsified identification. I can imagine that if someone stole someone's cheque out of a mailbox and wanted to get someone to vouch for them and open an account and cash the cheque...but that doesn't happen. If we have an account holder vouch for someone else, similar to how someone on the voters list would vouch for someone else, just that simple qualification has allowed thousands of people to achieve a bank account or, in the case of elections, to vote. I've never experienced a single case of false ID, ever, in the 10 years we have been working in the neighbourhood.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Mulholland, would you like to add anything at all? I think I have only about 30 seconds.

[Wanda Mulholland]

I would just like to add that it is about trusting people and providing mechanisms for people to participate. It's also about recognizing that people shouldn't be punished because of poverty, and it's because of poverty that there are the issues around identification. Having the two of those things together in a society that is democratic is crucial in order to be supportive of all our citizens.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Scott.

We'll go to Mr. O'Toole for four minutes, please.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to continue on my last line of questioning because I think it's important, and I would refer any of you to the Electoral Participation of Persons with Special Needs report from Elections Canada, in 2007. That identifies areas of recommendations, including mobile polls and assistance. Many Canadians may not realize, but electoral reforms in 2000 actually provided that shelters could be used to satisfy the residency provision. Before that, that didn't exist. Ms. Barr, who was here before, from Raising the Roof, was one of several participants in round tables with Elections Canada, and perhaps you were as well.

That led to our famous list of 39 pieces of identification, and the attestation letter is one of those. So thank you. Some of you might have participated like Ms. Barr did. But it's important for us to separate the challenges with vouching from voter participation. Vouching happens when there is no identification. Mr. Neufeld's study from the 2011 election and some byelections, including my own, showed that not only was there trouble administering it, but it led to a huge error rate—46% serious errors—which, in the opinion of courts, could overturn a result. My suggestion would be that the vouching errors that we're trying to eliminate here don't get to the voter participation challenges facing the homeless.

Ms. Mulholland, you said poverty should not be a barrier. Along the lines of what I was saying with attestation before, since 2000 to the attestation now, have you seen an increase among people using the shelters since the reforms in 2000? Have you seen more voter participation?

[Wanda Mulholland]

In Burnaby, we do not have any shelters, so we're not able to participate in the way that other municipalities can.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Any other thoughts on that? Have you seen the changes in 2000 through to the attestation? Has that led to increased voter turnout among the homeless or folks in shelters?

[Dr. Abram Oudshoorn]

I don't have the statistics available on that. One of the things I would highlight...because I know that came right from the homeless-serving sector to do that letter of attestation. It was before my time. I had more hair, fewer degrees, and wasn't in the sector yet. It was done in the context of also having the vouching. So putting in that additional opportunity for identification still had that other opportunity as well. When that was recommended, it wasn't recommended in the context of a no-vouching alternative.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

In your experience with the vouching, and you described the challenge connecting people, only one person—you, for instance—could vouch for one other person.

[Dr. Abram Oudshoorn]

Yes.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

How do you identify those people, not the people who need the vouching, but the people who can provide it?

[Dr. Abram Oudshoorn]

Part of it is just making everyone aware it's election day. So, those signs, as I said, “Ask me how to vote”, help people be aware of that. It's starting with all of the service providers knowing that that's going on and that vouching is an option for them. The second is having people maybe going together. If you're at a service agency that is not a polling station, and there are three or four people who have said they want to vote—some of them have ID, some don't, they know each other, and they've lived in shelters together—then people can vote together.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Wouldn't it be easier for your volunteers to have a pile of the attestations to just use when they recognize someone?

[Dr. Abram Oudshoorn]

If that was available, but again, it goes back to the wording of the attestation. You couldn't just hand out an attestation to whoever came through there.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Could you, if you recognize them as having been in the shelter?

[Dr. Abram Oudshoorn]

If you can attest that they've ordinarily resided, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

I'm going to thank all of our witnesses. Thank you, Professor Oudshoorn, Ms. Mulholland, and Mr. Allen. Thank you for sharing with us tonight and thank you for the work you do, too. Thank you for being able to come tonight and help us out with this.

We are adjourned.