Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 30th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Okay. I'm sorry; it is Mr. Scott. I should have looked down.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

I wanted to give you the chance, if you could, to speak to one provision that hasn't yet come up, which is the expulsion and re-admission of MPs from caucus.

In my own comments and speech, from my perspective, in the real world in which we're all wanting to get to a slightly different equilibrium when it comes to independence of MPs within a functioning, coherent, solidaristic caucus, giving the power to the caucus as a whole to decide the expulsion and re-admission is an important reform, albeit one for each party to deal with now under your model.

Could you speak a little bit about whether you effectively agree about its importance in creating a bit more space for the independence of MPs?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Yes. I think there are two things that are incredibly important with respect to the expulsion or re-admission of caucus members. The first is that we be consistent, and the second is that the leader not have the power to make that decision, because I think it disproportionately affects the equilibrium of power between individual caucus members and the party leader.

On the first point, of being consistent, I think it's very important that we in this country uphold the rule of law and that we not base our decisions on ad hoc and arbitrary measures, and in the House of Commons and in its recognized parties we too often do revert to ad hoc and arbitrary measures in the way we self-govern ourselves.

You could look at the history of the last several Parliaments and at the recognized parties in those Parliaments to see how in each respective caucus the rules concerning member expulsion have been applied very differently.

If there's one place in this country that the rule of law should be sacrosanct, it should be within the very houses of Parliament in which we sit.

I think it's incredibly important to clarify the rules regarding member expulsion because, as you know, independent members of Parliament have far fewer powers than party members of Parliament. Expelling a member is not a small thing and has a very direct consequence on that member's ability to represent their constituents here on Parliament Hill.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you for that.

I want to go back to the interesting dynamic between a leader of the party in Parliament—the recognized party—and the leader of the extra-parliamentary party, the registered party.

Am I right in thinking that people are going to have to get used, given the fact that there already is a certain messiness about that relationship, to the fact—and it all depends on the party's constitution—that if a leader is somehow removed or urged to resign within a caucus, that in and of itself has nothing to say about whether that leader remains the leader of the extra-parliamentary party?

Am I correct? You can end up with a situation in which a relatively popular extra-parliamentary leader continues as the leader even when the caucus has taken the step of saying, we no long have confidence.

Is that correct?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

That is correct. We saw a situation somewhat similar to that in the aftermath of the prorogation crisis of December 2008, whereby the party of the official opposition within Parliament had a new leader in late December 2008, but the party outside Parliament did not select a new leader until May 2009. So even today it's possible to have a leader of the party outside Parliament other than the leader of the party inside Parliament.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I have one last question, a very quick one.

Have you given any thought to whether—and this sounds very minor—we should have any kind of formalized, central clearing house place to which people can go to see what each party has decided with respect to each of these rules?

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

No, I believe strongly that each party should be self-governing and that party caucuses should come to their own determinations on how they conduct themselves. I think the bill allows for that and will allow parties to live up to their unique traditions in special circumstances.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Chong, I thank you for coming today and sharing with us and answering our questions. We'll have plenty more, but you've suggested some witnesses who may be able to help us with that too.

We thank you—

I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Chair, if it would be helpful to the committee, I could give you a list of other witnesses who might be helpful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Certainly, by all means do. We're going to talk a bit about that subject after we go into some committee business. But you can certainly share that list with the chair at any time, and I'll share it with the group.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We will suspend for a couple of minutes before we continue in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]