Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 6th, 2014

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

No. You are absolutely right. Those are the administrative costs. This is going back to earlier questions about whether we would foresee anything beyond a take-note debate being triggered by 100,000 signatures. Other jurisdictions certainly do it.

In the Northwest Territories they don't really have a strict signature threshold. I think it's because of the nature of the Northwest Territories. If they get 50 people saying something is a big issue in their area, and they file that electronically, the legislature acts, but I think that's the nature of the Northwest Territories. I'm not suggesting we go there at all.

Again, I would suggest we start in a conservative way to make sure that we get the system right before we consider anything like striking special committees after 100,000 signatures. That's not something I would suggest. It's something the committee might consider if you felt you wanted to go down that road, but I'm not suggesting we do that.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

With regard to the U.K., did they do a cost analysis on the additional 20 debates that took place?

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I don't have one available, but I think we could get that from witnesses. Again, it would be the same cost as take-note debates or emergency debates cost now.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

It would be an additional budgeting exercise for the House officers to consider. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't do it, but I think we need to go into it with our eyes wide open in terms of the total impact.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I think that initially you'd have probably a flurry of e-petitions as they have in other areas, but then I think it would level out as the novelty wore off. I'm not anticipating.... You might get three to five of these a year, which I don't think would be an onerous cost.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I would agree. I just think we do need to consider it.

The other issue is that I think we would all say culturally we're different from the U.K. and other countries like New Zealand, or whatever. I know speaking for my own riding of Nanaimo—Cowichan we have very heavy Internet users. I can't give you the percentage, but a significant portion of my riding is computer savvy. I would expect my riding to be very activist with regard to petitions. I think some of my colleagues could attest to that.

Did you look at volumes generated in the Northwest Territories and Quebec?

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but we have looked, and again, this is where I could provide additional information where it shows early in the stages that you get a lot and then it peters out.

This system I'm proposing would be slightly different because they go through an MP's office initially, not to the clerk. In other systems it's quite easy for people to enter an e-petition and post it online and say, “Sign this”. In the system I'm proposing, it has to go to an MP and the MP initiates it with the clerk. That will actually reduce the number of petitions online right away, because again, MPs will be reluctant, I think, to sponsor improperly worded petitions. The clerk will also give advice, to say that it isn't going to work. The example of the Doris Day petition couldn't happen through the system I am proposing, and it would reduce costs.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Would the system automatically generate an e-mail?

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

This is how it would work. A constituent might like to start an electronic petition, so they come up with the idea. There would be an online form to fill out with their information. There could be a drop-down menu of MPs' names and they would choose the MP they wanted, and there you go.

Then it's sent to the MP's account and the staff would look at it. The MP would consider it and say it's good or the MP would go back to the constituent to say the petition needs to be reworked. There's an initial debate and then it goes to the clerk for verification. The clerk might notice for example that there's swearing in the petition and say that it can't be tabled. At that point there is no cost at all to the House.

If the MP says the petition is fine to go forward, and the clerk verifies it, then it's posted.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Great.

I have Mr. Richards on the list. You have four minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As someone who has brought forward a private member's bill and seen it through to successful completion, I commend you for the fact that you're bringing forward a bill and you've clearly done a lot of research and you're well prepared.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I know how much work there is involved in that. I commend you for that.

I have a couple of questions. The first one goes to some of the similar things that you were just discussing. It's in regard to the actual signing of the petition. There are a couple of things that I'm curious about.

Your chart sort of lays out the process. I have a couple of questions about number 6, where they sign the petition. At the very end, you indicate one of the things is that there's a safeguard in place, or you have a number of them, but you would indicate that there would be a safeguard in place to prevent an unusual number of signatures from the same IP address.

Have you thought about exactly what that means? What's the barrier? Would you allow a certain number from one IP address, or would it be a single person from each IP address? I guess the same would go for an e-mail address. Would it be one signature allowed per e-mail address?

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

That's right.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

What are the barriers? What are your thoughts on that?

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Again, I look at it much like a paper petition. If you get a paper petition that has five signatures of people from one address, you think that it's a family and that's why there are five signatures. If you get a paper petition that has signatures of 300 people from the same address, you think obviously that somebody has just made them up.

I think the clerk already has discretion over that, to be able to say the signatures are invalid. I think the same rationale could be used, but the IP address would essentially tell you the computer. It would act like a home address in some ways.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Sure. Understood, but obviously in this case, because you actually don't have a physical signature, you can't compare handwriting. You can compare addresses. You can compare e-mail addresses. I understand there would be a similar process to what occurs now, but the difference is a signature is now going to be the IP address.

I'm wondering if you have thought about the barrier. Is it one per IP address? What exactly would it be?

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

I would think something around the five mark, but that again.... I think one person you need to speak to is the person who runs this at the White House, who is in charge of all the technical back end. We got the idea of IPs from other jurisdictions, so I think they could give you a range that would be appropriate.

The other thing too is it's not just looking at the IP address. It's that the person has to actually answer an e-mail to say “Yes, that's my signature.” If you think about the steps, if somebody wanted to fake 100,000 signatures, they'd have to basically get 100,000 computers or around that number, maybe 75,000.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

If you were doing a barrier of five, they'd have to get 20,000, I guess.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Okay. They'd have to get 20,000 computers.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Fair enough.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Would it be worth it?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

That's why the barrier is important. Right?

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

That's right. Absolutely, and you're getting a debate in the House without a vote, so is it worth getting 20,000 computers together to do that? Probably not.