Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 21st, 2013

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Then I suppose—and I asked this question of the Information Commissioner—if you were complying with and following all of the rules and the bylaws as set out, then if there were any need to change the way in which you operate, it would start with looking at the rules and bylaws and perhaps expanding them, changing them, or amending them to some degree.

Would that be correct?

[Audrey O'Brien]

I'm not sure that is correct in the sense that I think the audit didn't go one step behind that to ask if these policies are the correct ones. I think that's one of the difficulties with this discussion of the board: that many different issues become conflated.

We're talking about the Board of Internal Economy and the administration as the executing arm, if you will, or the executing body for the decisions of the board, and we're talking about information about those decisions. If you want to get into a situation where you ask if these decisions are correct and if these allowances are the right ones, to my mind that's a different issue.

It's a very rich discussion in many ways, but I think sometimes what happens is that there are so many things at play and that people are talking about different things while using maybe the same vocabulary.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I appreciate that.

Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You have more than a minute.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Good.

If you have been following the discussion, you probably have seen this comment in the blues or the transcripts. Mr. Sills from IPSA spent a great deal of time with us talking about the need for IPSA and how IPSA operates.

I noted with interest that many of the operating practices of IPSA are similar, or seem to be similar, to those of the Board of Internal Economy. But the need for IPSA to be formed was surrounding, of course, the expense scandal in the U.K., and from my view, our rules and the bylaws would make it almost impossible for the same type of expense abuse to occur here.

But at the very end—this is the point I want to get your opinion on, and I understand it's tough to make an objective opinion when you're in a highly subjective situation, but nonetheless—Mr. Sills said his advice to us would be that we as a committee would have to determine whether or not there was a problem large enough for a need, then, to replace the Board of Internal Economy. I personally haven't seen, over the course of my nine years here, any problems large enough to match the extent Mr. Sills referred to as the reason IPSA was formed.

Can you comment on whether or not, in your experience, there have been problems to the degree we saw in the U.K. with members' expenses or anything on the financial side of things in the House?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Please give a very short answer.

[Audrey O'Brien]

Mr. Chairman, I think this is a very important question.

One of the things we were particularly pleased with when Mark and I visited London and talked to John Sills, and his colleagues at IPSA and the colleagues at the House of Commons, was finding that the processes we have in place and the kinds of policies that determine those processes are very similar to what IPSA has in place.

They are every bit as robust in terms of the determination of the legitimacy of expenditures, and the policies are every bit as strict, even down to the fact that we have a financial portal, which people are finding perhaps difficult to adjust to because it's not just paper anymore, but that's another added layer of safety in terms of saying you have to meet certain threshold criteria.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Scott, go ahead, for seven minutes.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks so much for being back, Ms. O'Brien and Mr. Watters.

I want to set the scene. What we'd like to discuss, as much as we can, with you is what the transition to a more independent structure could look like. Let's leave aside the policy debates the other side seems to want to continue to have on whether we're going to have such a body.

I would note that Mr. Opitz, who is no longer with us, really did mistake the nature of the motion. He said that we're here to study “as an option”, which is language that does not appear in the motion. The motion says that we are to conduct open and public hearings with a view to replacing the Board of Internal Economy, and so that is the spirit in which we'd like to continue the rest of our questioning.

What would it take to transition to a more independent organizational structure, like IPSA, while not necessarily losing all the benefits we see with how the BOIE works? My colleagues are going to ask more specific questions.

I want to put paid to another possible misunderstanding. Ms. Legault, who was here earlier, suggested that we really have to look at the cost. Of course we have to look at the cost, but she cited the £6 million figure that IPSA cited, but at the same time, we were told that amount was either less or roughly the same as what the same functions had cost before. Whether or not that's going to be as easy for us to make it a wash in the future is something to discuss, but it's inaccurate to leave the impression in people's minds that the IPSA structure somehow cost an extra £6 million. It didn't.

Before we start the questions, I want to end by getting back onto the consensus point to see how that might work in an independent structure. The reason this NDP motion is here is that we believe not only with Madam Legault that the Access to Information Act should apply more broadly to the parliamentary administration, but also that we need much fuller disclosure of MP expenses, and we want this to be non-selective. Parties don't get to decide which expenses to disclose; just travel or just hospitality, for example, which is what the Liberals have done. It should be full disclosure, and here's the key: we believe that not only must the rules apply to everybody, and that's why we're trying through this multilateral process, but also that independent third-party verification adds to public confidence and to the accuracy of the information. Accuracy and completeness of information is much easier if the body tasked with it has an arm's-length relationship to those who are being reported upon; us, the MPs.

We have a fairly clear view: we want to see everybody move in this direction. Now, the two other parties keep hammering us to say that we want rules applicable to everybody, and at the same time, the Conservatives haven't done a thing. They keep talking about the fact that they plan to do something—we haven't a clue what it is—and the Liberals have completely botched what they planned. We have the leader of their party putting out one expense, when we know he travels all around the country. Whether he's hiding behind the leader's office, I don't know. The Conservatives have done nothing.

If we don't get to the point where we have everybody’s agreement that we go to a multilateral system with new rules, and that everybody knows what fully disclosed expenses will be necessary, then we're going to have to see if we can come up with our own, better system for ourselves.

Here is my question. Consensus doesn't mean unanimity, correct?

[Audrey O'Brien]

That's right.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Okay, without asking you to reveal anything at all about what goes on in current decision-making, would it be possible in the current system—and therefore be something we'd have to look at in the new system—for the presiding officer to simply declare a consensus if half the members in the room were firmly in favour and the other half did not want to go in that direction? Is it the prerogative of the chair to be able to define “consensus” in that way?

[Audrey O'Brien]

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say it's the prerogative of the chair.

I can say that no chair has ever done that. It has happened that there has been consensus that was not unanimous, and that too is not all that frequent because there is usually the agreement of everyone around, but not always. My experience has been that the chair will expect agreement among some opposition members and some government members—let me put it that way. It's not a one-sided thing, because consensus with nobody is consensus with yourself.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

So it's ultimately for the chair to come up with his or her own understanding.

[Audrey O'Brien]

Exactly, and usually what the chair would do is to encourage further discussion.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Okay.

I have one last question, if I have time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You do. You have a minute.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Maybe I'll start with Mr. Watters, as this is now transitioning more to what my colleagues will be asking about, which is what it would look like to keep everything that's good about the BOIE and the way it functions now—effectively, it functions because of professional and highly qualified staff—but layer in the independence of the decision-making structure. Rather than the committee being made up of six members, or whatever it is now, who are MPs and are appointed by their parties, we would have a system of independent representatives who are appointed or otherwise selected.

Do you see it as possible to layer that level of independence onto what we already have?

[Audrey O'Brien]

May I, Mr. Chairman, and through you to Mr. Scott, cover off some of the points he raised earlier, which, as I understood, were questions?

Our concern as officials who serve the House and serve all parties is indeed to have rules that apply to everyone. That's one of the reasons why we're here to speak to what.... Regardless of what the individual parties may decide to disclose in their own party way, we are talking about what the board wants disclosed on behalf of the entire House, so that's important, and it's terrifically important to us that what's disclosed is accurate and is complete. It may not be sufficiently detailed to suit some viewers, some members, and some parties, but it is accurate and is complete.

With regard to what we call the key-in-the-door cost to move to an independent body, Mark can speak to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

And he'll need to do that under our next questioner.

Mr. Lamoureux, if you'd like to go there, we can get that answer.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Well, actually, Mr. Chair, there are some things I cannot resist, of course, and I want to pick up on Ms. O'Brien's comments in terms of applying rules to everyone.

Mr. Scott was making reference to the Liberal Party leader. He wants to know where the Liberal Party leader flies. The good news is that in regard to where the Liberal Party is flying at taxpayers' expense, you can find out. We have what they call proactive disclosure.

It's something that you refuse to participate in. A good example is, we would say that we should also be able to know where your leader flies. We understand that he flew to Winnipeg in first class while our leader was flying economy. We want to be able to know how much your leader is spending on airfare.

Through you, Mr. Chair, of course....

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Yes, and not to Mr. Scott. Thank you.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

But of course, Mr. Chair.

We believe that Canadians have a right to know who's flying first class, to know if they choose first class, like your leader, or who's flying economy, like our leader is flying economy. These are things on which, at the very least, everyone within the Liberal caucus has taken a step forward through proactive disclosure.

When the member makes reference to “we want more, we want more”, it's a kind of childish game that they're entering into. You can have this, what we have today, and we can do what Madam O'Brien is suggesting in terms of having a rule that applies to all political parties and is administered by the government, as opposed to a political party. All we need is the consent of the New Democrats in order to make that happen.

My specific question is for you, Madam O'Brien. The Auditor General of Canada has provided performance audits on MPs' expenditures in the past. One of the suggestions is that we have that on a more regular basis, so that every three years there would be a performance audit conducted by the Auditor General. Do you feel that would be helpful?

[Audrey O'Brien]

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I have perhaps a slight clarification, in that the performance audit the Auditor General has done here is a performance audit of the administration, not of members. An audit of members by the Auditor General has been something that members have steadfastly resisted, because it is viewed as an interference in their carrying out of their parliamentary functions. That's never been done.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Do you think there would be value in terms of having performance audits conducted, then, on the expenditures of members of Parliament?

[Audrey O'Brien]

Frankly speaking, I think, again, that because of the vast differences in the backgrounds of members, they operate in very different ways; the former Speaker spoke last night about people with extensive industry experience or professional experience and so forth, and people with relatively none all of a sudden coming into.... So I'm not sure that a performance audit in that sense would be all that helpful. I think there are ways in which some things could be made more helpful. Perhaps my colleague, who has auditing experience, can suggest some ways.