Evidence of meeting #135 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was english.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Linda Lapointe  Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.
Marc-André Roche  Researcher, Bloc Québécois
Stephanie Kusie  Calgary Midnapore, CPC

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Before I get to the reason for this meeting, I want to update the committee on two things.

One is that the Liaison Committee has asked us where we're travelling between March and June. I said New Zealand, but they wouldn't agree. I assume we'll just put in that we don't need any money for that.

The other thing—and this is more for David Graham—you will remember that the PPS reported in estimates that they will be buying unmarked cars with the new money. You may have noticed there are some new marked cars showing up. PPS just wanted to let you know those were bought with the old money. The new unmarked cars are still coming.

Also, there's been general agreement that in the second half, instead of going into subcommittee, we're going to continue on with the full committee, because then it would have to go to subcommittee anyway.

Good morning, welcome to the 135th meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Today, we will consider the fourth report of the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business submitted to the Clerk of the Committee on Thursday, November 22. The subcommittee recommended that Bill C-421, An Act to amend the Citizenship Act (adequate knowledge of French in Quebec) be designated as non-votable.

Pursuant to Standing Order 92(2), we are pleased to have with us the sponsor of the bill, Mario Beaulieu, member of Parliament for La Pointe-de-l'Île, to explain why he is of the opinion that this bill should be votable. He is accompanied by Marc-André Roche, a Bloc Québécois researcher.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Beaulieu. For your information, the correspondence you sent on Tuesday was distributed to the members of the committee. You can now make your presentation to the committee.

November 29th, 2018 / 11 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for having us here.

As I indicated in my letter to you, the subcommittee may have found my Bill C-421 clearly unconstitutional, but it did not specify which section of the Constitution or the Charter it was alleged to have violated. In the absence of a clear indication, I will provide an overview of all the provisions that may be relevant. I hope this will answer your question. Otherwise, I am at your disposal to answer any questions you may have.

As you mentioned, I am accompanied by Marc-André Roche, the assistant to my colleague, the member for Joliette. Since we don't have a research team, he gave me a hand.

As you know, the standard used to assess whether a bill is unconstitutional is not very high. On page 1143, Bosc and Gagnon state:

Bills and motions must not clearly violate the Constitution Acts, 1867 to 1982, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I emphasize the words “clearly violate the Constitution Acts”. It has long been established that a disagreement on the constitutionality of a bill is not enough to make it non-votable. I have a feeling that you will not have difficulty in making your decision.

Right now, permanent residents must meet a number of criteria to become Canadian citizens. These include passing two proficiency tests: a general knowledge test about their host society and a language proficiency test, where they must demonstrate that they have adequate knowledge of English or French.

Bill C-421 is quite simple. It amends the Citizenship Act to ensure that permanent residents who ordinarily reside in Quebec must demonstrate that they have an adequate knowledge of French.

The first constitutionality criterion is the division of powers. Citizenship falls under federal jurisdiction under section 91.25 of the British North America Act, 1867, which specifies that naturalization and aliens fall under the jurisdiction of Parliament. Clearly, my bill meets that condition.

That leaves the Charter. Since the subcommittee has not indicated any specific provisions to support its decision, I will go through it as quickly as possible.

First, there are mobility rights. Subsection 6(2) of the Charter states that citizens and permanent residents have the right to move anywhere in Canada, to take up residence in any province and to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province. Whether or not Bill C-421 is passed, nothing would prevent a permanent resident residing in another province from moving to Quebec, settling and working there. Nothing would prevent a permanent resident residing in another province from obtaining Canadian citizenship there, then moving to Quebec and enjoying all the rights and privileges associated with Canadian citizenship.

Since Bill C-421 has no impact on mobility rights, I gather that this is not why the subcommittee found the bill to be “clearly unconstitutional”.

Then there is the language of communication with federal institutions. Subsection 20(1) of the Charter states that the public may communicate with the federal government in either English or French at their discretion, and that the government must be able to provide services in English or French where numbers or the nature of the service warrant it.

Bill C-421 has no effect on the language of communication between the public and the federal administration. Whether or not this bill is passed, a permanent resident will still be able to communicate with the federal government in either English or French.

Similarly, the oath of citizenship may continue to be administered in either French or English, in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada. I might have preferred it otherwise, but that would have made my bill unconstitutional. That's why I did not propose it.

Bill C-421 simply requires that permanent residents residing in Quebec demonstrate that they have an adequate knowledge of French, the official language and the normal language of communication in Quebec.

Let me remind you that there is already a degree of asymmetry in the application of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. In Quebec, the Government of Quebec selects and supports immigrants and implements integration programs. Knowledge of French holds a prominent place in all those stages.

Bill C-421 supports Quebec's efforts and extends the granting of citizenship, which already exists at the previous stages, namely selection, support and integration. The selection, reception and integration of immigrants, as well as the granting of citizenship are four elements of the same process. I have difficulty seeing how knowledge of French would be constitutional in the first three steps, but unconstitutional in the fourth. In any event, Bill C-421 has no effect on the language of communication between the public and federal institutions, which resolves the issue of its compliance with subsection 20(1) of the Charter.

There are still the provisions on official languages.

Subsection 16(1) of the Charter states:

English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada.

I emphasize the words “equal rights and privileges as to their use”. Bill C-421 contains no provisions or requirements regarding the use of English or French. It only refers to the knowledge of French. Knowledge and use are two completely different things. In addition, subsection 16(3) clarifies the scope of the Charter:

Nothing in this Charter limits the authority of Parliament or a legislature to advance the equality of status or use of English and French.

That subsection of the Charter refers to the “equality of status or use of English and French” in Canada. The Supreme Court even recognizes that French is the minority language in Canada. It recognizes that, for English and French to progress towards equality in Canada, French must be predominant in Quebec. In the 2009 Nguyen decision, it ruled as follows:

...this Court has already held... that the general objective of protecting the French language is a legitimate one... in view of the unique linguistic and cultural situation of the province of Quebec...

This allows the court to conclude that:

... the aim of the language policy underlying the Charter of the French Language was a serious and legitimate one. [The materials] indicate the concern about the survival of the French language and the perceived need for an adequate legislative response to the problem...

I am talking about a constitutional judgment.

The measures to ensure the primacy of the French language in Quebec effectively promote the equality of status or use of French in Canada. It could even be argued that the government's current practice with a view to making Quebec bilingual contravenes this, since by making French weaker in Quebec, it does not promote the equality of the two languages in Canada. That being said, there's no need to debate this here.

I had to show you that my bill is not “clearly unconstitutional”. I think I have.

I am at your disposal to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you very much.

I'm not going to do regular rounds of questioning. I'll just let anyone who wants to ask questions to ask questions. Just let me know.

Madame Lapointe.

11:10 a.m.

Linda Lapointe Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Beaulieu.

I am the chair of the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, which deals with all the bills. Last week, we reviewed 15 bills, one after the other, with the analyst responsible for making proposals and providing explanations. We have studied your bill at length to check all that.

Do you know where my riding of Rivière-des-Mille-Îles is located?

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, yes, I know where it is.

11:10 a.m.

Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.

Linda Lapointe

It includes the cities of Deux-Montagnes, Saint-Eustache, Boisbriand and Rosemère.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

It is the north shore.

11:10 a.m.

Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.

Linda Lapointe

Yes, it's in the northern ring of Montreal.

My riding has a number of permanent residents.

I'm going to ask you a question about your bill.

Are you suggesting that those people who live in my riding, who are anglophones, Americans who have become permanent residents, go to Ontario to take their citizenship test since they cannot do it in Quebec because they do not have an adequate knowledge of French?

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Essentially, I think it would encourage them to learn French in order to have an adequate knowledge of it. That would be a very good thing, because it would make it even easier for them to integrate into the labour market.

In Quebec, it is vital that French be the common language to ensure its own future. Quebec is the only predominantly francophone province, the only province where we can successfully ensure that newcomers know French. This does not mean that they cannot speak English.

11:10 a.m.

Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.

Linda Lapointe

Take me, I am a francophone. It doesn't get any more francophone than the name Lapointe. I was raised in Laval, I have always worked in Boisbriand, and I promote French in the House to all my colleagues.

Isn't that right, colleagues? Say yes. Say that I speak to you in French all the time. Even when you don't understand, you manage to understand.

I promote French and do everything I can to make people bilingual. In my opinion, the higher the bilingualism rate in Canada, the better.

I sat on the Standing Committee on Official Languages with Mr. Nater and Ms. Kusie, who are as convinced as I am of the value of bilingualism.

I mean, we are promoters of bilingualism and, in my opinion, when it comes to French, we must go even further. I am uncomfortable with your bill.

I am not a constitutional expert. We have people who can help us if need be. Those working at the Library of Parliament can help us. I am just uncomfortable with this bill.

I don't make the decision. If I am told that a bill is not constitutional, I cannot challenge it as a lawyer would. I hold a bachelor of business administration degree. I don't claim to be a lawyer at all.

I cannot see myself telling the anglophone constituents in my riding, who have the right to be permanent residents of Quebec, who contribute to society in their own way even though they speak English, that they will not become Canadian citizens and that they will simply remain permanent residents.

Perhaps some of my colleagues have something to add.

11:15 a.m.

Marc-André Roche Researcher, Bloc Québécois

I may have something to add.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Yes, go ahead, Mr. Roche.

11:15 a.m.

Researcher, Bloc Québécois

Marc-André Roche

The subcommittee's official report is not available yet, but the “blues” are. Let me remind you that your analyst recommended that the bill be votable. I understand from your remarks that you are looking forward to being able to speak in the House and vote against it. That is precisely what we are discussing.

11:15 a.m.

Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, Lib.

Linda Lapointe

From the discussions we have had and that were reported in the “blues”, we considered it unconstitutional.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

I didn't quite get it, but my understanding is that when the analyst comes to the subcommittee, he doesn't give any opinions on whether it's votable or not. He just gives all the facts from his perspective.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

The analyst basically said that it could be voted either way.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Now we'll go to Mr. Graham.

If you don't understand what he says.... I don't know what language he's going to speak.

11:15 a.m.

Researcher, Bloc Québécois

Marc-André Roche

No, that's fine.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

None of us understand him either.

11:15 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Mr. Beaulieu, what would you say if a bill from Alberta, for example, referred to people under 65 years of age on the date of their citizenship application, who ordinarily reside in Ontario and have an adequate knowledge of the English language?

Would that be unconstitutional? Could it be an attack on the French language? Could that mean war in Quebec?

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

I think it would probably be constitutional. However, English and French do not currently have equal status.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

They have it in the Constitution.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

That's right.

The Constitution seeks to ensure equality.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

However, you are trying to take away from the federal government a power granted by the Constitution.