Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 19th, 2019

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Technological security is a whole field in itself. It could be quite a long discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

We'll suspend for a few seconds while we go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]

[Public proceedings resume]

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Shall vote 1 under the House of Commons in the interim estimates carry?

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Vote 1—Program expenditures..........$87,453,121

(Vote 1 agreed to on division)

Shall vote 1 under Parliamentary Protective Service in the interim estimates carry?

PARLIAMENTARY PROTECTIVE SERVICE

Vote 1—Program expenditures..........$27,262,216

(Vote 1 agreed to on division)

Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming again. I'm sure we'll see you again when we get to the main estimates.

We'll suspend while we change witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Good afternoon, Minister.

Good afternoon and welcome back to the 142nd meeting of the committee.

As we consider the votes in estimates under the Leaders' Debates Commission, we are joined by the Honourable Karina Gould, Minister of Democratic Institutions. She is accompanied by the following officials from the Privy Council Office: Allen Sutherland, assistant secretary to the cabinet, machinery of government; and Matthew Shea, assistant deputy minister, corporate services.

Thank you for making yourselves available today. I will now turn the floor over to you, Minister, for your opening statement.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Minister of Democratic Institutions]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to the committee.

I am pleased to be here today to discuss with you the supplementary estimates (B), 2018-19, and the interim estimates 2019-20 for the Leaders' Debates Commission.

I am pleased to be joined by my officials. As you mentioned, they are Al Sutherland, assistant secretary to the cabinet, machinery of government and democratic institutions; and Matthew Shea, assistant deputy minister of corporate services.

Leaders' debates play an essential role in Canadian democracy. Indeed, this is a key moment in the election campaigns. They provide voters with a unique opportunity to observe the personalities and ideas of the leaders seeking to become the Prime Minister of Canada on the same stage.

It is important that we realize that leaders' debates are much more than just media events. They're a fundamental exercise in democracy. As such, they may be organized in a way that is open and transparent and puts the public interest first. They must also be entrenched as a public good that Canadians can count on in each and every election to help inform their voting decisions.

Traditionally, leaders' debates in Canada were organized and funded by a consortium of major broadcasters, including CBC/Radio-Canada, Global, CTV and TVA. The consortium held private negotiations with political parties regarding dates, participation and format of the debates.

The closed-door nature of debate negotiations has been the subject of criticism for many years. Moreover, there were no consistent, clearly defined participation criteria applied in the 2015 debates, with some leaders participating in all the debates, while others participated only in a few.

The accessibility of the debates was also limited. For instance, we had debates in French that were not accessible to some francophone communities.

In response, as Minister of Democratic Institutions, I was asked to bring forward options to establish an independent commissioner to organize leaders' debates during future federal election campaigns, which was reaffirmed through a budget 2018 commitment for $5.5 million over two years, recurring each election cycle, to support a new process that would ensure that leaders' debates are organized in the public interest.

Our government sought input from Canadians through an online consultation and a series of round tables involving representatives from the media, academia and public interest groups.

I also welcomed the committee's study launched in November 2017, in which it heard from 34 witnesses, myself included, during eight meetings. The committee also received written comments from political parties and stakeholders.

The vast majority of stakeholders expressed that leaders' debates make an essential contribution to the health of Canadian democracy. There is broad support for and value in the creation of a debates commission that is guided by the public interest, and there is a need for open and transparent information on the organization of the debates and especially the debate participation criteria.

Stakeholders also expressed that the permanent debates commission needs to be built to last, and that it is important to get it right. During my November 2017 appearance before PROC, I outlined a series of guiding principles that would inform the government's policy development for the leaders' debates commission: independence and impartiality, credibility, democratic citizenship, civic education and inclusion.

The commission exercises its independence and impartiality in carrying out its responsibilities and any associated expenses. The commissioner has the independence to determine how best to spend the allocated funds, while maintaining the funding envelope of $5.5 billion over two years.

As identified in the estimates, the commission has started to use these funds for items such as salary, including the hiring of an executive director. Additional costs are expected for the contracting of a production entity, the operation of the commissioner's advisory board, awareness-raising and engagement with Canadians, and administrative costs.

During his appearance before PROC on November 6, 2018, the debates commissioner, the Right Honourable David Johnston, stated that it would be his intention and duty to use funding in a responsible manner and that he would seek every opportunity to reduce costs while also recognizing the need to make debates available to the largest possible audience.

The commission will continue to be fully independent and impartial as it prepares to execute its primary mandate to organize two leaders' debates, one in each official language, for the 2019 general election.

The commission is headed by a commissioner and supported by a seven-member advisory board. It is expected to be fully operational by spring 2019. Following the 2019 general election and no later than March 31, 2020, the commission will be mandated to submit a report to Parliament outlining findings and recommendations to inform the possible creation of a permanent commission.

I am confident the proposed approach will ensure that two informative, high-quality, engaging leaders' debates are broadcast on TV and on other platforms in 2019.

In conclusion, I would reiterate that leaders' debates are a public good. The commission will help ensure that the interests of Canadians are central to how leaders' debates are organized and broadcast. I look forward to hearing your feedback and welcome your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you very much.

[David Christopherson]

I'm just curious, Mr. Chair, to know if there's a particular reason the minister didn't give us the courtesy of a copy of her remarks, as is customary.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

I apologize. There is no reason, and I'd be happy to share them with you. I will check with my staff as to what happened.

[David Christopherson]

They should have known.

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Yes, I apologize.

[David Christopherson]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

We'll start with Madam Lapointe.

[Linda Lapointe]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome you, Ms. Gould, and thank you for being here.

I listened carefully to your presentation. One of the responsibilities of the Leaders' Debates Commissioner is “engaging with Canadians to raise awareness about debates”.

In terms of official languages, you said that we must reach everyone, no matter where they are in the country. Could you give us more details on that? How will you reach all Canadians, including linguistic minorities, no matter where they are across all provinces?

The commission is also mandated to provide “free of charge, the feed for the debates” that it organizes.

I am a mother of four children. They are now grown and live in homes where they don't have access to cable.

How will you reach people in similar situations and ensure that they are informed of the debates? How could they get free access to these debates?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Lapointe.

I would like to emphasize the commissioner's independence in terms of decision-making and action. For our part, we have ensured that he has the necessary resources to enable him to assume his responsibilities, based on his own methods.

Our goal is to ensure that all Canadians, wherever they are in the country, have access to debates in both official languages.

For example, during the consultations, representatives of a francophone community in Nova Scotia stated that they were unable to access the leaders' debates. So we have added the issue of accessibility to the commissioner's mandate.

We have heard about another important fact across the country. Many of the new generation of adults and voters don't have access to cable. They don't watch TV in the traditional way.

Therefore, the commissioner's mandate is also to ensure that debates are available in a variety of formats and on a variety of platforms: not only through traditional media, but also on social media, on the platforms of digital giants and on the Internet in general.

Canadians will have access to the feed for debates in a format that suits them.

[Linda Lapointe]

Do you have anything to add, Mr. Sutherland?

[Allen Sutherland, Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office]

I fully agree.

[Linda Lapointe]

Thank you.

In my opinion, it's very important to circulate information about the availability of debates. That was just for context.

Earlier, you mentioned the commissioner's independence in decision-making and the methods to be adopted. You also mentioned that he and his team would be on the job in spring 2019.

Do you think he will be able to count on all the staff he needs to train his team and fulfill his mandate?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

As I said earlier, we have ensured that the commissioner has the necessary resources, but I am not aware of Mr. Johnston's activities because the commission must remain independent.

Mr. Johnston is extremely competent, and I am convinced that he is currently working very hard to get his team together, a task that is entirely his responsibility, to fulfill his mandate.

I have full confidence in Mr. Johnston, and I am certain that he will do an excellent job.

[Linda Lapointe]

There is the commissioner who will organize the debates, but can you suggest other ways we could strengthen our democracy?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Do you mean ways to strengthen our democracy in general?

[Linda Lapointe]

Yes. How can we go even further?

[Karina Gould, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

The creation of the Leaders' Debates Commissioner position is a very important initiative. These debates are key moments for people because they can see how leaders interact spontaneously and know what they think.

There are many things we could do to strengthen our democracy. The announcement we made two or three weeks ago is also important. It relates to protecting our democracy from cyber threats and threats from abroad. We must talk about our democratic system and ensure that people have the tools to be well-informed and know where the information comes from. It's important.

Together with the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness and the Minister of National Defence, I also announced an investment of $7 million in digital, media and civic education programs. In a more digital world, this is important. We know that a lot of information is circulating on the Internet and digital platforms. People must have the necessary tools to know what to believe and what not to believe.

The study of Bill C-76 conducted by this committee was very important to ensure transparency in political advertising.

[Linda Lapointe]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today. Actually, I want to begin by thanking you as well for your service as Minister of Democratic Institutions. I understand that you won't be seeking re-election this fall in Burlington, so I wanted to thank you for your service to Burlington.