Evidence of meeting #142 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commissioner.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
My office has not been involved since the appointment of the commissioner. The commissioner is responsible for his work since being appointed.
Calgary Midnapore, CPC
Okay. I have to say that this is the second time you have mentioned this. You mentioned it within your opening statement as well, and my colleague did make a remark, a joke, to open up, but I don't believe that independence can be used as an excuse for not having knowledge of the process and not being able to share information with this committee in regard to the process. I guess I would just ask you to please consider that for future visits here.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
That's your point of view, but I think that actually independence means independence, so that means the minister is not directing or involved in the commissioner's ability to make those decisions. I really do believe in the definition of independence, so we have not been involved whatsoever, but I'm happy to be here to answer the questions to the best of my ability.
Calgary Midnapore, CPC
Sure. My point of view would be that the purpose of your being here, Minister, is to provide the committee with a fulsome update, and when you tell us that you do not have the information.... I'm not sure if your colleagues who are here with you today can provide further information on that. That is what we expect as the opposition and as the committee. We expect to have that information in some capacity or another.
My colleague touched briefly upon the seven-person advisory panel. The public information you mentioned is the only information that has been provided so far in regard to appointees to this panel. Can you elaborate further on whether one of the individuals will be from the PCO and who that might be?
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
As I said, it's up to the commissioner to make a decision as to who they are, and I do not have knowledge of whom he is thinking about at this time.
Calgary Midnapore, CPC
Okay.
My colleague also made reference to some of the costs. When the debates commission was announced, it was also publicized that it would be given a budget of $5.5 million for the two debates.
Again, since it is the government that is responsible for dispensing these funds, have you been given any information in regard to a budget or an itemized budget? Again, being that as a committee we are here discussing the estimates, I feel that we have the privilege and the obligation to review the expenditures. If you could provide any additional information in regard to a budget, as specific as possible, we would appreciate that information.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
I'll handle that.
I would maybe just take you back to when that $5.5-million figure was come up with.... That was a best estimate, and that was an “up to” amount. I think the debates commissioner has made it clear that his goal is to actually live below that budget. Any interactions I've had with him from an internal service perspective have certainly been along that line.
I can tell you that probably in the realm of $900,000 to a million of that will be salaries, with the lion's share being for other operating...for things such as professional services, which will include the advisory committee, advertising services and communications services. There will likely be a large contract that would be related to actually holding the two debates. That's where the lion's share of the costs will be.
The debates commissioner's office has made it clear they're still finalizing that exact budget, but that's what our $5.5-million estimate was based on, and I think it won't be far off that. From an overall split, there may be differences between what they spend on professional services versus advertising, but I think the salaries I mentioned are pretty bang on.
Hamilton Centre, NDP
Thank you, Chair.
Minister, thank you very much for being here. Starting on a positive, let me just say how impressed I am that not once in the entire term since you've been a minister have you played games, jerked us around, or dodged any invitation to come here, no matter how difficult the subject. That's appreciated and respected.
Having said that, we're on that file again. I just need to make a statement and then I'll move on.
Again, the undemocratic nature of the democratic reform ministry still takes my breath away. It's still not acceptable.... Well, I should say it is acceptable, because we have no choice, but it's not warmly accepted that the government unilaterally appointed someone who plays such a key role in our democracy. It leaves open the argument, for those who didn't want the leaders' debates commission, to have a legitimate broadside. Again, the lack of respect for the commitment of this government to independent committees and the importance of committees in the main.... In large part, it's just been talk, talk, talk. We haven't seen the walk, walk, walk.
Having said all of that, I accept the rule of Parliament, which decided that this is now in place, so we'll move forward. We'll deal with any changing after the fact. I will speak to that a bit in terms of accountability, but we do accept that this is now in place.
I have to tell you that on a personal basis, the only thing that saved the day for you was the integrity of the person you picked. I mean, that papered up a lot of the cracks in the walls, but those cracks are there. The election's coming, and you folks are going to have to wear it on these things.
Having said that, I will move on. In terms of the members, I respect the independence you're alluding to. By the sounds of it, I believe that's being respected, but at what point does independence meet accountability? What exactly is the vehicle, as you see it, given that there's no guarantee who the government is next time? How do you see it right now in terms of the accountability back to this committee or some other entity? Having given people all this independence, all this power and all this money, what's the accountability? As well, will that include a detailed budget next time, rather than just a macro number?
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
Thank you for those questions.
Perhaps I can first put this on the record. I know that my colleague is not seeking re-election next time, and I don't know if I'll have another chance. I know I'm always welcome to come back to the committee, and I know you'll invite me back, but I'd like to say now how much of a pleasure it's been to work with my colleague Mr. Christopherson. I think Parliament will be missing him next time around, because he does serve with a lot of integrity.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
It does help, but I have a lot of admiration for you.
At any rate, if I can just get that on the record, I'm glad to say that.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
With regard to accountability, I think that's a really important question. It was something we did try to build into the process with regard to the debates commissioner coming back to this committee within six months of the election—or I guess a bit less, with March 2020—to talk about how things went and to provide an update and the plans moving forward. I was—
Liberal
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
As per the OIC, the debates commissioner is required to provide a report on an in-depth analysis of the experience of the 2019 debates, the organization of the debates, and advice for the future form of a leaders' debates commission. That report is to be tabled in Parliament.
Liberal
Karina Gould Liberal Burlington, ON
I do think, though, that with regard to the next estimates, that's something that could be explored definitely by this committee. I also think that one thing the committee.... Of course, you make your own decisions, but I think one thing that should be asked is whether the budget that was in place for 2019 was sufficient, or too great, or whatever the experience was.
I would imagine that the debates commissioner, when he tables that report—and he would ultimately like, I believe, to come back to Parliament—will have suggestions in terms of how a budget could be allocated, given our experience this time. This is the first one. We're hoping we're providing sufficient resources to be able to deliver on the mandate. I think the experience of this first time will serve greatly in terms of a more built-to-last model.
Hamilton Centre, NDP
Thank you.
The advisory board is obviously key. Are you aware—or is it public—what the criteria are for acceptance, and is it the intention of the commissioner to make public the names of these members as they are appointed?
