Evidence of meeting #93 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interpretation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Charles Robert  Clerk of the House of Commons
André Gagnon  Deputy Clerk, Procedure
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Lauzon

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Good morning. Welcome to the 93rd meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Pursuant to the committee's mandate to review and report on the procedures and practices of the House and its committees, today we are beginning a study on the potential use of indigenous languages in the proceedings of the House of Commons.

Members will recall that on June 20, 2017, the Speaker ruled on a question of privilege, which had been raised at a previous sitting by the member for Winnipeg Centre, regarding simultaneous interpretation services available to members who use indigenous languages in the House. Although the Speaker did not find that a prima facie case of privilege existed, he did suggest that the committee consider studying the matter.

To this end, we are pleased to be joined by Charles Robert, Clerk of the House of Commons, and André Gagnon, deputy clerk, procedure.

Thank you both for being here.

Just so the committee knows, for the technical questions on this, Public Services and Procurement Canada provides these services—both translation and the document. We'll have them later as a witness and they can answer further technical questions after we get proposals from our witnesses. We have quite a list of witnesses that the parties have submitted, so it should be very interesting hearing from them.

We'll go to you, Mr. Clerk, for your opening comments. Thank you for coming. I know you're very busy, so we really appreciate your being here today.

11:05 a.m.

Charles Robert Clerk of the House of Commons

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am delighted to be here with you, and I would like to thank the committee for inviting me to appear today to speak on the use of indigenous languages in the House of Commons.

The right of members to speak in the House in either French or English has been guaranteed by section 133 of the Constitution Act, 1867. Simultaneous interpretation was introduced in the House in January 1959, allowing all members to listen to every word spoken in the chamber in either French or English.

Over the years, various members have also addressed the House in languages other than English or French. This has prompted questions as to how these interventions could be understood for the benefit of all members of the House and those listening at home. Such interventions have often been limited to a few words, and most have occurred in statements by members.

Although simultaneous interpretation into English or French on the floor of the House is not available in these instances, a note is made in the Debates to explain that the member spoke in another language. If a translated version of the remarks made during statements by members is provided to the parliamentary publications directorate, that will also be documented. As an example, the Debates would state, “Member spoke in Cree and provided the following translation”, which is then accompanied by the text of the statement.

Members have also chosen to speak in another language at other times. This has occurred during debate on a bill, a motion, or even during oral questions. When a member speaks in a language other than English or French, outside of statements by members, the Debates simply note which language was spoken, without including a translation of the remarks, as follows: "[Member spoke in Cree.]".

To facilitate understanding of what is being said in the chamber, the speaker has generally encouraged members using another languages to repeat the remarks in one of the official languages so they can be interpreted. This ensures that their interventions are fully reflected in the Debates.

In response to the question of privilege raised by the member for Winnipeg-Centre, Mr. Ouellette, Speaker Regan reiterated on June 20, 2017, that:

[...] given the House's current limited technical and physical capacity for interpretation, if members want to ensure that the comments they make in a language other than French or English can be understood by those who are following the proceedings and are part of the official record in the Debates, an extra step is required. Specifically, members need to repeat their comments in one of the two official languages so that our interpreters can provide the appropriate interpretation and so that they may be fully captured in the Debates. By doing so, all members of the House and the public will be able to benefit from the rich value of these interventions.

Admittedly, going beyond this and expanding support for the use of other languages does raise significant considerations involving technical and physical capacity, linguistic expertise, and information technology requirements; these, of course, would need to be thoroughly assessed.

While other jurisdictions have some experience upon which you could draw, it will be important to recognize the uniqueness of each context in order to understand the real possibilities for the House of Commons. The recent experience in the Senate is worth noting. The practical challenges it experienced are likely similar to the types the House would face in attempting to support the use of other languages in our proceedings, such as the issue of securing the services of qualified interpreters and addressing the logistical and technical limitations.

Whatever decisions the House makes on including other languages in its proceedings, I can assure you that the administration will do all it can to support you in your discussions and to implement your decisions.

With that, I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have, with the assistance of André Gagnon.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Larry Bagnell

Thank you.

Masi cho. Gunalchéesh. Sóga senlá.

Just so the committee knows, we'll have as witnesses a number of MPs who are indigenous. We'll have a number of senators. We'll have a number of translation organizations and a number of legislatures in Canada and from around the world that use different languages. So we'll see different models.

We'll go to the first round of questioning.

Mr. Graham, please.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you.

Thank you both for being here.

First, members are, by their very nature, considered honourable, so what precludes members today from providing translation to the translation booth to read into the record at that time? As I recall, when the member for Winnipeg Centre started, he had intended to do that, namely, provide the English and French text to the translation booths and then not read it in that language.

March 20th, 2018 / 11:10 a.m.

André Gagnon Deputy Clerk, Procedure

If you recall, Mr. Graham, that situation arises when members make some statements in the House. They provide the text for Hansard, but not for interpretation.

I think you would be in a good position to ask that question of our interpretation services, but our understanding is that they are not able to qualify or at least identify the quality of the translation provided at that time.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

That's my point. The members are considered honourable, so we have to assume that what they are providing is in fact correct. Would that be correct?

11:10 a.m.

Deputy Clerk, Procedure

André Gagnon

That could be a decision of the House, yes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I see. Okay.

You mentioned at the end of your remarks the Senate's experience. Can you talk a bit more about your perspective on the Senate's experience, given that you were certainly there for it?

11:10 a.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

Yes. In fact, I was responsible for the experiment. I was the principal clerk of chamber operations at the time. The Senate had made an agreement that it would experiment with the use of Inuktitut. We had senators who spoke that language, and there was a recognition that we should respect their home language, their maternal language, and allow it to be used in the chamber.

Under the program that was used, we requested that we be given advance notice. The reason for that was not to discourage them but actually to work with the interpretation services to identify someone who would be available in Ottawa to provide the translation from Inuktitut into English. We did not have the capacity to do Inuktitut into French.

It was used on various occasions by Senator Willie Adams and Senator Charlie Watt. They did use it. In the sense that they were encouraged to use their language, it was reasonably successful, but it always required considerable preparation and advance notice. If we were not able to secure the services of an interpreter, we had to either delay the intervention or explain to the senator that we couldn't provide the interpretation that we had hoped.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

You mentioned that it could only be done into English. Could it not have been done through relay translation to get it into French?

11:10 a.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

Yes, but that presents a challenge of its own, which I think the interpreters could explain. There is always a loss when you go from one language to another. It's like, I guess, Plato's cave: it becomes more and more of a shadow. If you go from Inuktitut to English, and then French from the English, there is a double remove.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

You said there was a notice period to get it. What was the notice period?

11:10 a.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

At the time, we originally asked for five days. Again, it was because we needed that lead time to secure the availability of an interpreter.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

How hard is it to find those interpreters? Are there companies in the area that provide interpreters on call? For example, if we were to make this more institutionalized, could we have, with 24 hours’ notice, any of a set series of languages available?

11:10 a.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

My suspicion would be that it would be a lot easier for commonly spoken foreign languages. I'm not sure how difficult it might be—or how easy it would be, to give it a more positive spin—for the aboriginal languages. I think for the ones that are popularly spoken it's likely that it would be easier. We had difficulty, actually, with Inuktitut, not necessarily because there is a dearth of members who speak the language, but they just don't happen to live in Ottawa.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

That's fair. I guess, with modern technology, could we not do the translation from a remote site?

11:10 a.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

That's certainly a consideration.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Okay.

Logistically, are we capable of easily looking at having an additional interpreter in the chamber, in the new chamber in the West Block, or in the future chamber in Centre Block?

11:10 a.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

André may know more about this than I do, but I do think that the new chamber in the West Block will be more accommodating than the current one. As I see it, the interpreters' booths look like telephone booths at the corner of the chamber. These don't look very commodious, and I suspect that the interpreters don't really like them, it but they put up with it. If they had to squeeze in somebody else, I think they would start talking about the Black Hole of Calcutta.

11:10 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Would the West Block have additional telephone booths?

11:15 a.m.

Deputy Clerk, Procedure

André Gagnon

Yes. There will be a third, additional booth for the House of Commons, for the chamber. The booth would not be situated in the assembly in the same way the two others are today, but yes there will be. As for committees, the solution to that would be like what we are doing today, which is to have additional booths in the room.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Okay.

You mentioned earlier that translation is to be provided for Hansard. That's already the case, right?

11:15 a.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

Well, only if you have the interpreter. The Hansard would not necessarily reflect the language itself. In the English version of Hansard, or the French version, you would maintain the integrity of English and French. You would just simply note that the member spoke in a third language. Only in the audio feed would you actually hear, I suspect, the third language.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Okay. Now, Hansard itself isn't technically published until Parliament dissolves, right? The final version is published at the end of the Parliament...?