Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 21st, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 10 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, April 11, the committee is meeting to discuss parliamentary duties in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Before we start, I want to inform members that, pursuant to this order of reference, the committee is meeting for two reasons: first, for the purpose of undertaking a study and receiving evidence concerning matters relating to the conduct of parliamentary duties in the context of COVID-19, and second, to prepare and present a report to the House of Commons by May 15. The order of reference also stipulates that only motions needed to determine witnesses, and motions related to the adoption of the report, are in order.

Today’s meeting is taking place via video conference, and the proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Please be aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

In order to facilitate the work of our interpreters and to ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Interpretation of this video conference will work very much like in a regular meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either “floor”, “English” or “French”. At this time, if you haven't already done so, please pick your language of preference.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can either click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, or you can hold down the space bar while you are speaking. When you release the bar, your mike will mute just like a walkie-talkie. This is a great option for quick interactions. However, I do recommend that, if you are not going to be speaking for a long period of time, you go to the standard mute setting.

As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. If a member needs to request the floor outside of their designated time for questions, they should activate their mike and state that they have a point of order. If a member wishes to intervene on a point of order that has been raised by another member, they should use the “raise hand” function. This will signal to the chair that they are interested in speaking.

In order to raise your hand, you should click on “participants” at the bottom of your screen. When the list pops up, you will see next to your name that you can click “raise hand”. Some may have this at the bottom of the participant list. It will either be beside your name or at the bottom of your list. Raise your hand, and you will be able to see beside your name that your hand has been raised. My list will go according to priority, so I think this will work quite well. Even if I don't see it in live time, I will be able to see who raised their hand first.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

The use of headsets is strongly encouraged. It amplifies the voice and makes it much more clear and crisp. If you have disturbances wherever you are, it will be less likely to catch the surrounding sounds.

Should any technical challenges arise, for example in relation to interpretation, or if you are accidentally disconnected, please advise the chair immediately, and the technical team will work to resolve the problem. Please note that we may need to suspend during these times as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

Before we get started, can everyone click on their screen, in the top right-hand corner, and ensure that they are on “gallery view”? With this view, you should be able to see all the participants in a grid view, it will ensure that all video participants can see one another. This is the only view that gives us the most realistic feeling of being in a committee room.

During this meeting, we will follow the rules that usually apply to opening statements and to the questioning of witnesses during our regular meetings. Each witness will have 10 minutes for an opening statement, followed by the usual rounds of questions from members. I'd like to thank our witnesses today for providing their opening statements in advance.

Just as we usually would in a regular committee meeting, we will suspend in between panels in order to allow the first group of witnesses to depart and the next panel to join the meeting.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Madam Chair, as a point of order, my understanding is that as of now, this is only being broadcast as audio, when the meeting notice indicated that it was to be a video conference. I'm just trying to confirm whether in fact the video is working on the ParlVu site, which is where I presume this is being broadcast from.

Could anyone confirm that, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you for raising that question. I'll find out.

I believe there was just a minor delay with a technical difficulty, so I have been informed that it has been fixed. Thank you for raising that.

Now, to begin, I'd like to welcome our witnesses. We'll start with Speaker Anthony Rota.

Welcome to meeting number 10 of the procedure and House affairs committee. We're looking forward to hearing from you on this study.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Speaker of the House of Commons]

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's an honour to be here this morning.

I want to say good morning to all the members of the committee, and thank you for the invitation.

Good morning, everyone. I'm happy to be here.

Your committee has been given a very important and challenging mandate further to the motion adopted by the House on April 11. Specifically, you have been asked to study ways in which members can fulfill their parliamentary duties while the House stands adjourned on account of the public health concerns caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, including the temporary modification of certain procedures, sittings in alternate locations and technological solutions, including a virtual Parliament.

The House of Commons and its members play an essential role both in advancing legislation and in holding the government accountable. Given the importance of this role, which is simply the cornerstone of our democracy, collaboration among members and parties has enabled parliamentarians to continue to perform their duties on behalf of Canadians during this pandemic.

Since the House adjourned on March 13 in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, it has been recalled twice and it sat again yesterday to deal with some of the effects of this unprecedented situation. The House of Commons has also authorized certain standing committees to hold virtual meetings to ensure that Canadians receive the information that they need and that the executive remains accountable for its actions.

As this crisis persists, with devastating consequences for the livelihoods and personal lives of Canadians, members are being called upon to play a role while adapting to the current context by finding new ways to fulfill their parliamentary duties. Several standing committees have held public meetings by teleconference or video conference, and the House has met a few times with a reduced number of members in attendance, observing public health guidelines for social distancing and avoiding unnecessary travel.

While this approach has worked to advance support to Canadians and granted the government the necessary authority and powers to respond to the pandemic, it does present considerable challenges to all members to fully participate in the proper exercise of their representative role.

As Speaker and as a member, I am keenly aware of the impacts this pandemic is having on individual members and of how it's affecting our ability to perform our duties as we would wish.

Not surprisingly, others have had the same concerns, so you have been given the mandate to study the possibility of virtual sittings of the House of Commons, and even of sitting in alternate locations. The creation yesterday of a special committee on the COVID-19 pandemic will provide another mechanism to ensure that parliamentary oversight is maintained.

I'm listing the options that we're currently exploring because, despite this exceptional situation, I'm confident that the House will adapt and rise to the challenge. That said, we must recognize that a House sitting that includes the remote participation of members or a completely virtual sitting can't entirely reproduce the practice or traditions that Canadians are accustomed to seeing when they follow the proceedings of the House.

To this end, as you consider various options for House sittings adapted to the COVID-19 pandemic, I suggest that you bear in mind the following guiding principles, in addition to any that the committee might identify.

First, any model must uphold the rights, immunities and privileges of the House and its members.

Second, simultaneous interpretation, both in French and English, must be available to members. Members should also continue to have access to established processes for the interpretation of indigenous languages.

Third, all members must be able to participate, recognizing that connectivity can vary in constituencies. Because of the range of services available in different regions, and the varying security requirements and capabilities, it will be important for each member to take the time to work with the House administration to ensure the best possible outcome.

Fourth, any changes to the House's rules and practices should be made in a manner that ensures that the legal validity of the proceedings continues. The Clerk and the law clerk will be your next witnesses and are prepared to advise the committee, among other things, on the interpretation of section 48 of the Constitution Act of 1867, which deals with quorum.

Fifth, the solution should limit the changes to the rules and practices of our House to what is temporarily required for its implementation. Our rules and practices would undoubtedly need some adjustment. For example, it would not be practical for members participating remotely to rise in their places to be recognized to speak. Other long-standing practices that uphold the dignity of the House—for example, addressing remarks through the Chair, insisting the proceedings be conducted in a respectful manner and maintaining the rule that members wishing to speak wear business attire—can and should continue to inform how the House conducts its business, even though it's by virtual means. I have watched a few of the recent video conferences, including the one this morning, and could not help but notice that some members were, let’s just say, bending the dress code a little.

Sixth, the video of the proceedings of the House should be accessible, include French and English closed captioning, be available live and on demand through ParlVu, and continue to be disseminated to media organizations for rebroadcast and to CPAC for distribution to viewers across Canada.

With these guiding principles in mind, the committee may wish to consider additional factors that might help ensure the success of possible virtual sittings during the pandemic.

First, I wish to recognize the work of the employees of the House administration, who achieved so much in such a short time. The recent virtual and video conference committee meetings were an undertaking of a different order of magnitude from their daily responsibilities. Despite the considerable challenges posed by physical distancing orders, and various other concerns and anxieties, they worked hard so that these critical meetings could take place swiftly and effectively.

In the current pandemic, while the House administration and its partners are operating without a full workforce, they are committed to providing all necessary on-site operational support needed for the House, its committees and members in a way that secures the health and safety of all those employees whose dedication makes our parliamentary work possible. I believe it is important that we as members recognize that this is a reality and acknowledge that not everything is possible during this pandemic.

I say this even as the list of standing committees authorized to meet increases. The capacity of the administration and its partners is finite. These committees will not be able to meet all at the same time if a virtual sitting of the House is also taking place. It will be necessary to establish priorities. Accordingly, I have instructed the administration to provide the whips with a weekly schedule, founded on current capacity constraints, so that they can decide what they wish to see delivered. The administration will provide robust support to members through training, guidelines and testing, as well as assistance before, during and after their interventions in any virtual proceedings. I will ask that you continue to make yourselves available, be patient and allow time to resolve the difficulties that will occur as a natural part of this innovation of virtual sittings.

Further, during our deliberations I would refer you to my response of April 8 to a letter from the government House leader that I received on April 5, seeking advice with respect to virtual sittings of the House of Commons. As I stated in my reply, I have asked the administration to propose an approach that would allow for virtual sittings of the House within four weeks. This ongoing work by the administration involves experts from digital services, real property and procedural services, working in partnership with our public and private sector partners, with the goal of enabling the House to hold virtual sittings. The administration continues to consult other parliaments to learn from the technological changes they are making during the pandemic, as well as national and international security partners and experts in virtual collaboration.

As you weigh the various options, ranging from sittings held in alternate locations to hybrid or entirely virtual sittings, we, as members, must make certain that any approach allows the proceedings of the House to be carried out with the integrity and dignity that all members and all Canadians expect of their Parliament. We also have a responsibility with respect to order and decorum.

Having witnessed for some years now the extent of the on-site operational support needed prior to, during and following sittings of the House, I can only imagine the challenges and delays that sittings outside our nation’s capital would bring as we wait to resume our parliamentary duties.

Entirely virtual sittings also represent a significant change that would multiply the practical, procedural and technical challenges to overcome. To support any sittings in a manner that meets the existing accessibility requirements, we should continue to leverage the same physical spaces, technology infrastructure and human resources used for physical meetings on Parliament Hill.

The House's implementation of virtual committee meetings offers a prime example of the benefits of an incremental approach to delivering new solutions in support of parliamentary work. Taking a similar approach to virtual House sittings will allow the administration to offer the best possible service to every member, ensuring that each is able to make full, informed and effective use of remote participation tools and processes.

The largest challenge facing members is that a majority of the 338 members are now in separate locations far away from each other. An incremental approach should therefore consider the proceedings that better lend themselves to this reality, for example, as has been suggested, members' statements and ministerial statements. Based on that experience, the House could then expand the types of procedures covered in a virtual sitting to more closely resemble a typical sitting of the House, so as to effectively engage the full participation of members.

This could, in time, extend as far as remote voting through a secure technology, should circumstances require it and the House approve it. Any early indication that you can provide to the House administration as to particular options that you feel best respond to the needs of the House will help prioritize the issues at hand. To assist the committee, representatives from the House administration, in collaboration with our partners, stand ready to provide support and advice on how to meet your requirements.

In summary, we want to proceed as quickly as we can, keeping in mind the principles and other considerations I have mentioned, which I hope your committee will take into account. The earlier you can provide direction as to the options you would like to pursue, the quicker and more efficiently our staff will be able to provide a solution for the benefit for all members and the Canadians we serve.

With that, the Clerk and I would be pleased to answer any questions you would have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

I see hands raised.

Mr. Brassard.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you.

I have a technical question. I'm generally proficient in English and French. I just find that with the interpretation, the level of volume on the interpretation is actually equal to the level of volume of the speaker on a lot of the words, and it's difficult to follow.

I wonder if there's a way we can raise or lower the volume of the interpreter, so that it doesn't all mix together. I don't know if anybody else is hearing what I'm hearing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Yes, we are hearing it. I have mentioned it to the clerk and I believe a few other members have left me messages about that. Thank you for bringing that up. It does make it difficult to hear either language. It makes it difficult for everyone, no matter how many languages they know. Thank you for that. We're going to look into whether that can be adjusted.

Ms. May, you had something to say.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Chair, I would like to request, if time allows, that I be allowed a question on the round with the Speaker. Not being a full member of the committee, I'm taking my place virtually at the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I'll see whether any of the parties are willing to give up a time slot or how we can fit you in, but we'll try to take care of that. Thank you, Ms. May.

Now that has been brought to the attention of the technical team, we should continue with our rounds of questioning.

Our first round is a six-minute round, beginning with MP Blake Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

This is a point of order, so I'm not taking any of my time. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but would we not hear the Clerk's opening remarks prior—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

The Clerk will be giving his statement at the beginning of the second round. This round, the Clerk is here for any questions you may have.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

For clarification, we have at the table both the Clerk and the Speaker, and we can question both, but the opening remarks by the Clerk will be given before the second half of the meeting. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

That's correct.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Speaker, in your opening remarks, you laid out three guiding principles that you thought were important for the committee to consider. I would agree that they are all important considerations. Essentially, in short form, they make sure that any model we come up with would uphold the rights, immunities and privileges of the House and its members; that interpretation in both English and French would be available; and that all members would be able to participate in recognition, as you pointed out, that connectivity can vary in different constituencies. That certainly is true in our country, no question.

Given that, you've given a directive that the administration try to put this together in four weeks. Can you give us a sense of where that four weeks came from? What advice did you receive that indicated four weeks was an appropriate amount of time for that to happen? Are you firmly of the belief and quite certain that these three principles could, in fact, be upheld if we were to move ahead with something in that amount of time or less?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I consulted with administration to see what they were capable of, and they were very strong. They have a good team in place. They figured that the middle of May was feasible, and it is something that could work out very well—and I say “could”. All things being perfect, we'll have everything running smoothly, but as you saw in setting up this morning, there were some technicalities in making sure everything would run smoothly.

One of the big issues of concern, as you mentioned, is that not all MPs or all ridings are treated equally when it comes to Internet connectivity. That is a concern for the rural ridings especially, where connectivity could be a problem. That's where we start looking at issues. Let me deal with the two easy ones first.

One is interpretation, and it is coming together and shouldn't be a problem. Every member across the country should be able to have proceedings transmitted in French or English, their choice, or if they want to—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

In the interest of time, I think you've given a pretty clear indication that you feel that one won't be an issue.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

No, and I was just going to touch on rights and privilege. By not having the connectivity or by having any issues, that could be an issue down the road. That is something we're looking at.

I'll let you get on to the next question. Go ahead.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Are you still concerned about that possibility? It sounds as if there's some doubt in your mind about whether that one might become an issue.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

It might be an issue, a multi-faceted one, for the connectivity. As we mentioned, some areas don't have the connectivity. Some of our MPs are not tech savvy. They're not hooked up, and getting them on board might be a little more difficult. It's a small minority, but they have the same rights as everyone else and that has to be respected.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Of course.

You mentioned some of the difficulties we've had today, and there have been a few of those, for sure. This is the second committee meeting I've participated in—well, I guess the third, actually. The first one was by video. As for the other two, at finance and the previous meeting we had for this committee, video wasn't enabled yet. This is a pretty recent development in terms of the committee aspect of things.

I wonder if you would share concerns based on what you've experienced today. I know you've participated in some Board of Internal Economy meetings, or at least one, by teleconference. I don't know if you can share with us your experiences—obviously I'm not asking you to tell us what was said in camera—in terms of how the technology worked and whether those meetings were able to flow well. Obviously you're talking about a smaller number, so when we get into a House of 338, those problems would only magnify.

I'm curious whether that has given you some pause for thought on this. Maybe while you're at it, could you give us some sense of whether you got any more clarification from the administration as to how they arrived at the four weeks they've given you as advice for producing this?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Overall, when we look at what's been going on now, all of us have been working from home or from another location. Many of my meetings have taken place by either video conferencing or teleconferencing. Most of them overall have been going fairly well.

You referred to one meeting of the Board of Internal Economy. When we did hook up, there were some definite problems there. What ended up happening? We finally figured out what it was, and that was the administration again. We have some very competent technical people who figured out what the problem was. It was one of the lines on the floor. If you were listening to the meeting through the floor feed, there was a problem. If you had it in French or English only, it was working fine. That was a technical issue, and that does pop up occasionally, but it has been taken care of.

Unfortunately, sometimes if you have an urgent meeting, you really don't have the time to fix it. There were some concerns there.

Overall, I have a lot of confidence in the staff here and that they'll figure out an issue, but like anything else, once you have one thing solved there will be something else. That happens in live presentations as well.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Speaker, did—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

That's it for your time. I've definitely given leeway for opening statements and each question. I'll continue to give a bit of leeway because I know there are a few challenges here and there. We have factored that in.

The next person up is Ms. Petitpas Taylor.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Before I begin, I would like to take the opportunity to thank the IT staff and the House administration for all of the work they've done to provide us with the tools we need to have this virtual meeting. They're working very hard, and I want to acknowledge their work.

I also want to take a moment, if you'll indulge me, to provide my sincere condolences to our friends from Nova Scotia. They are going through an unthinkable situation and I want to express my profound sorrow and grief. As Canadians, we are all Nova Scotians right now, and we grieve with them during this really difficult time. I felt I had to put that on record.

As PROC committee members, we have been asked to study our parliamentary duties with respect to the COVID-19 pandemic and how it has impacted our duties. There are a few things I want to state for the record.

We know that COVID-19 is a serious public health threat, and the situation is evolving daily when we look at the numbers. The risk varies between communities, but given the number of cases in Canada, we certainly recognize that the risk remains high for all of us. When it comes to transmission, we know that most transmission is from person to person, but it comes from droplets that are shared, if you will. The droplets can be spread for about two metres. When we talk about staying six feet apart, we know where that comes from.

We also know that this virus can survive on surfaces for different periods of time, up to three days, and this depends on conditions and other factors. We know that this virus has an incubation period of one to 14 days, during which time mild asymptomatic transmissions can occur. I think we all know this, but the best ways for us to prevent COVID-19 are by staying home, keeping a safe distance, washing our hands repeatedly, covering our mouths when we cough and limiting our travel. Public health experts and researchers continue to research the risks involved, and they are basing that research on the best science and data available.

Canada has been tackling COVID-19, but I think we have to recognize we're far from being out of the woods, and we absolutely have to keep our foot on the gas to combat this virus. I think we also all recognize that during this pandemic we are experimenting with different technologies and different procedures to do our duties as parliamentarians.

We've been asked as PROC members to look at temporary modifications while using technological solutions, including virtual parliaments, to allow all members an opportunity to fulfill their parliamentary functions. I have to stress that it's all members, not just the ones who live close to Ottawa, the nation's capital.

My first question is directed to the Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I know that you're the chair of the Board of Internal Economy. I'm wondering if you could share with the committee members and Canadians what restrictions have been put in place for COVID-19 and why those restrictions were put in place. Did all parties agree to those restrictions?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

There's a list: No touring, no committee travel, no meetings in person and staying six feet apart. There's a whole list of different.... I don't have the list. It's fairly straightforward, and I think you summed it up very well. One of the big things that is very important is that we be careful. You summed up what we have to do and how we have to prevent it.

I'm just going to defer to the Clerk.

Mr. Richards, you were asking why the Clerk was here. He'll have the list and then I'll come back again.

Mr. Clerk.