Evidence of meeting #10 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was panel.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Charles Robert  Clerk of the House of Commons
Philippe Dufresne  Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Justin Vaive

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

I was. I gave almost everyone 30 to 40 seconds over their time in the past rounds. That includes the Conservatives, the Bloc and the NDP.

I do want to explain that at times I try to look for a clean break. Of course, if a question is just about to be asked and the person's time is already done, I will cut off the question. There's no way we would have enough time for the response. However, if the response is under way and they have almost completed their thought, then that's where I do tend to give a little leniency, just so the witnesses can continue their thought. I would not allow, of course, another question if the time was close to being complete.

That's just to let you know how I try to give flexibility to everyone a little bit so that they can end off their thought but not start a new one.

If we could give one minute to Ms. May, that would really just be giving her about 30 seconds extra.

12:25 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Very briefly, the Speaker knows, of course, how deeply I care about the issue of the personal privilege of parliamentarians to participate equally. All rights being equal, I'm very concerned about our current agreement voted on yesterday, because obviously people who are under quarantine in their province have a hard time participating.

On the connectivity issue, as you're studying it, we recognize that nothing we adopt now will be as good as the real thing, but we have a pandemic, so we're prepared to compromise on quality. For members of Parliament who travel from rural areas to Ottawa, have you considered looking at the trip that each one of us makes to get to the airport and then fly to Ottawa, noting that any airport and airport motel will offer connectivity with a lot less travel for any member from a rural area where there are connectivity difficulties? Are you taking that as a possibility in the study?

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Everything is taken into consideration. Unfortunately, we do have standing orders that we have to work with. Those are the rules that we have within the House. If we disregard them, then it's an infringement of our rules within the House. In order to change those, one of the hard parts is that we would have to bring everyone to Ottawa to vote on those changes. It really does handicap us and make it difficult.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That's all the time we have for that question.

We do have a two-and-a-half-minute round that would go to the Bloc and the NDP, but given the time constraints that we're under, oftentimes we're not able to get to those rounds. I'm wondering if we could start our second panel, hear the Clerk's statement, and then begin our six-minute rounds.

Is everybody okay with me doing that at this time?

Go ahead, Mr. Richards.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

On a point of order, Madam Chair, and being aware of where we are in terms of the time, I know that you've set aside an hour for committee business. I'm assuming that it's just to look at the draft work plan. I wouldn't think that this would require a full hour. Given where we are with the time, I would suggest that we leave a full hour for this panel so that we can ask questions of the Clerk and the law clerk and then use the remaining time for the committee business that would need to be transacted.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Thank you. I think that's a great suggestion. I'm just trying to be mindful of the Speaker's time, because he was only slotted in for the first hour.

Does the Bloc or the NDP have any opposition to our starting the second panel with the law clerk and then having all of the rounds in the next hour? No? Okay. Thank you.

We will have a 10-minute statement by Mr. Charles Robert. We'd love to hear from you.

12:25 p.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I will be much briefer than 10 minutes, and then I'll be followed by Philippe Dufresne, the law clerk and parliamentary counsel, who will give an explanation of the constitutional issues that might be involved in holding a virtual House of Commons.

As I said, the law clerk and I are here to address the constitutional and legal implications of a sitting that includes the remote participation of members or that is entirely virtual.

Parliamentary privilege exists to enable Parliament to function effectively without undue impediment, and in Canada, it is enshrined in our Constitution. The rights and immunities associated with parliamentary privilege include control by the House of Parliament over its debates and proceedings in Parliament, including its day-to-day procedures.

The Constitution provides a number of requirements that the House must follow in determining how to regulate its debates and proceedings.

Relevant to this study is section 48 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which specifies that a quorum of 20 members is required in order to constitute a meeting of the House.

Section 48 states that the presence of at least 20 members of the House of Commons shall be necessary to constitute a meeting of the House for the exercise of its powers, and for that purpose the speaker shall be reckoned as a member.

As well, section 133 of the Constitution Act, 1867 and sections 17 and 18 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms mandate that—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

Madam Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt, but am I the only one who's getting the interpretation?

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Yes, I was just communicating with the clerk.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON

The interpretation is skipping as Mr. Robert is speaking. It's very difficult to pick up both.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Maybe we can pause for a minute while we figure out the interpretation.

Mr. Robert, if you could backtrack about a minute of your statement, that would be helpful.

12:35 p.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

Let me begin at the part where I spoke in French.

The Constitution provides a number of requirements that the House must follow—

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Sorry, we're still having the static. It hasn't cleared up.

They're trying to change the translation. They think the problem may be in the translation booth, and so they are going to switch out the mike or change locations. We'll suspend for about a minute until they resolve that. Thanks for bringing it up.

12:35 p.m.

A voice

Madam Chair, can we suspend for five so that we can take a bit of a break?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Absolutely, but perhaps you can time yourselves, though. I really would not like the five to turn into 10, and that does occur sometimes when we're in the committee room as well. Please, in exactly five minutes we will be starting.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Welcome back, everyone.

Sorry, Monsieur Robert, for all the challenges and having to interrupt your opening statement a few times. We believe the problem has been resolved, so we can continue from where we left off.

12:40 p.m.

Clerk of the House of Commons

Charles Robert

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Constitution provides a number of requirements that the House must follow in determining how to regulate its debates and proceedings.

Relevant to this study is section 48 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which specifies that a quorum of 20 members is required in order to constitute a meeting of the House. Section 48 states that the presence of at least 20 members of the House of Commons shall be necessary to constitute a meeting of the House for the exercise of its powers, and for that purpose the speaker shall be reckoned as a member.

As well, section 133 of the Constitution Act, 1867 and sections 17 and 18 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms mandate that English and French are the official languages of House proceedings and legislation.

Mr. Dufresne will now address these legal and constitutional considerations in more depth.

Both Philippe and I will be pleased to then answer any questions you may have.

Thank you very much.

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Thank you.

We can hear from the law clerk now.

12:45 p.m.

Philippe Dufresne Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee, for your invitation to appear today in the context of this important study on ways in which members can fulfill their parliamentary duties during the COVID-19 pandemic, including through sittings in alternate locations and technical solutions such as a virtual parliament.

As law clerk and parliamentary counsel of the House, I am pleased to be here today to address the legal and constitutional considerations that arise in this context. I hope that my advice will assist the committee in its work.

As noted by the clerk, particularly relevant to this study is section 48 of the Constitution Act, which specifies that the presence of at least 20 members shall be necessary to constitute a meeting of the House for the exercise of its powers.

My remarks today will focus on section 48 and its implications for a virtual Parliament.

At the outset, I want to note that section 48 applies only to meetings of the House for the exercise of its powers. As a result, it doesn't apply to committees of the House such as your committee or the new COVID-19 committee.

With respect to the application of section 48 to House proceedings, I'll make three general points.

First, courts have recognized Parliament's autonomy and exclusive jurisdiction with respect to its proceedings, which include the Standing Orders, sessional orders and Speakers' rulings. Consistent with the separation of powers, courts will be very reluctant to get involved with anything relating to parliamentary procedure and practice.

Second, while courts have determined that they will not get involved with the process leading to the adoption of legislation, they will be prepared to review enacted legislation to ensure that it is consistent with the Constitution.

Third, courts have held that the Constitution is a “living tree” and must be capable of adapting with the times by way of a process of evolutionary interpretation that accommodates and addresses the realities of modern life within the natural limits of the text.

While the question has not yet been decided by courts, in my view, if the House were to amend its Standing Orders and adopt a sessional or special order to accept the virtual presence of members for the purpose of quorum, such a procedural decision would be constitutionally valid, as it would fall within the House's exclusive jurisdiction over the management of its internal parliamentary proceedings and in any event would meet the requirements of section 48 under a modern and contextual interpretation of the word “presence”.

That said, should the House wish to remove even the possibility of a legal debate on the matter, the House could decide to hold votes on the adoption of legislation with the physical presence of at least 20 members.

Lastly, Parliament could amend section 48 to indicate that, for greater certainty, virtual presence is considered presence for the purpose of section 48.

My first point relates to parliamentary privilege, which is the sum of the privileges, immunities and powers enjoyed by the Senate, the House of Commons and provincial legislative assemblies, and by each member individually, without which they could not discharge their functions.

Courts in Canada, the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth have consistently held that parliamentary privilege is part of the law, has constitutional status and includes control by the Houses of Parliament over debates or proceedings in Parliament, as guaranteed by the Bill of Rights of 1689, including day-to-day procedure in the House.

In the recent decision of Mikisew Cree First Nation v. Canada, the Supreme Court majority held that the law-making process is largely beyond the reach of judicial interference; that it's for Parliament, not the courts, to determine whether in a particular case the exercise of the privilege is necessary or appropriate; and that the existence of this privilege generally prevents courts from enforcing procedural constraints on the parliamentary process.

As a result, the House's internal procedures and rules, as contained in the standing orders, sessional or special orders or speakers' rulings, are protected by parliamentary privilege and can't be questioned by the courts or any place outside Parliament. While courts won't review parliamentary procedure, they'll consider enacted legislation to ensure that it meets the requirements of the Constitution. This includes the charter, the division of powers, or manner and form requirements such as the official languages requirements in section 133, which led to legislation being declared invalid in the Manitoba language reference. In the Mikisew Cree case, one of the justices suggested that section 48 could be another such provision.

In this context, the issue would be whether section 48 would allow the House to accept virtual presence as presence for the purposes of quorum when the House votes on legislation.

In my view, a strong argument can be made that the House could do so, for the following reasons. It is an accepted principle in Canadian constitutional law that the Constitution should not be viewed as a static document but as an instrument capable of adapting with the times by way of a process of evolutionary interpretation, within the natural limits of the text which “accommodates and addresses the realities of modern life”.

In other words, as held in the famous Persons case, the provisions of the Constitution are to be interpreted in a manner that is flexible and reflects the contemporary context. They have been compared to a living tree capable of growth and expansion within its natural limits and are not limited to a narrow and technical interpretation or construction.

In addition to the “living tree” approach, the Supreme Court has also underscored that the Constitution must be interpreted in a manner consistent with its internal architecture and the principles that underpin it.

In the Quebec secession reference, the Supreme Court noted the following in particular:

Democracy is a fundamental value in our constitutional law and political culture.

It also added the following:

The principle of democracy has always informed the design of our constitutional structure, and continues to act as an essential interpretive consideration to this day.

The speaker referred to this as a cornerstone of democracy.

In the Chagnon decision, the Supreme Court reiterated the fundamental constitutional functions of legislative bodies and their members—

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

I'm sorry to interrupt again. We are not hearing the English translation at this time. If I could have the witness go back to the beginning of the French portion of the remarks that he just started, that should clear up the problem.

Thank you.

12:50 p.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Philippe Dufresne

Okay, absolutely.

In the Quebec secession reference, the Supreme Court noted the following in particular:

Democracy is a fundamental value in our constitutional law and political culture.

It also added the following:

The principle of democracy has always informed the design of our constitutional structure, and continues to act as an essential interpretive consideration to this day.

The speaker referred to this as a cornerstone of democracy.

In the Chagnon decision, the Supreme Court reiterated the fundamental constitutional functions of legislative bodies and their members, which are enacting legislation and acting as a check on executive power. As a result, in interpreting any proposed measure, courts would consider whether it furthers or hinders the fundamental functions of the House to deliberate, legislate and hold the government to account.

For these reasons, if the House of Commons were to amend its Standing Orders to allow for the virtual presence of its members, this would, in my view, fall within the four corners of section 48 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which requires the presence of 20 members for quorum.

Section 48 of the Constitution Act could be interpreted using the dynamic “living tree” approach to the Constitution to count members present via video conference or teleconference toward quorum. As well, such an interpretation would arguably be consistent with democratic principle and the internal architecture of the Constitution enabling the legislative branch of government to continue to exercise its fundamental functions in the midst of a pandemic.

The determination of how the House counts the constitutionally mandated presence of 20 members is within the already established parliamentary privilege over debates or proceedings in Parliament, including the day-to-day procedures in the House. Once a privilege is established, Parliament, not the courts, must determine whether, in a particular case, the exercise of the privilege is necessary or appropriate.

By applying these principles to section 48 of the Constitution Act, 1867, the courts could ensure that the constitutional mandatory requirement of 20 members being present to constitute the House is respected, while leaving to the exclusive jurisdiction of the House the procedural aspects of quorum, such as the nature of the presence of a member to be counted towards quorum.

Under this approach, the standing orders or sessional orders of the House would state expressly that the House, in the conduct and control of its procedure and proceedings, was putting in place and endorsing internal procedures to implement section 48 of the Constitution Act, 1867.

Of course, it's possible that a court could disagree with this interpretation. In that scenario, the most serious implication of a court not finding a House proceeding to have the mandated quorum via virtual presence would be that what was adopted in the impugned proceeding could be invalidated.

To mitigate against this, the House could ensure that 20 members are physically present in the House for any votes on legislation or on substantive motions. As well, section 48 of the Constitution Act could be amended to state explicitly that virtual presence is presence for such purposes.

The order of reference to this committee also instructed it to consider the possibility of sittings in alternate locations.

I will briefly conclude by saying that on the issue of alternate location, section 16 of the Constitution Act states that Ottawa is the seat of the Government of Canada, but in my view there would be no legal impediment to the House conducting specified proceedings during the pandemic on any premises the Crown would have made—

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

If I could just interrupt, sorry.... I believe the channels have been switched around so it looks like those in English are hearing it in French, and those in French are hearing it in English, and it's quite delayed right now. Could we just start that portion again? I'm sorry, to the witness, for all these issues today.

12:55 p.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Philippe Dufresne

It's not a problem at all. I want to make sure as well that everyone can hear me.

Regarding the possibility of the House sitting in an alternate location, section 16 of the Constitution Act, 1867 states that Ottawa is the seat of the Government of Canada.

The question is whether the House could decide on its own to sit elsewhere, in Ottawa or in Canada. In my view, there would be no legal impediment to the House doing so during the pandemic, and we know that the House sat in an alternate location after the fire of 1916. That said, various considerations must be taken into account should the House decide to sit elsewhere.

Constitutional and legal requirements governing the proceedings of the House would still apply to a House of Commons sitting in an alternate location, as set out in section 133, which concerns language rights.

Also, having the House meeting at a location that's different from the seat of the government and the Senate could entail practical challenges. In the Canadian parliamentary system, where the government is responsible and present in the House, having the House meeting outside the seat of the government may render more difficult the presence of cabinet members at that location. Messages between both Houses, should there be any, would also need to be handled in accordance with this new logistical reality.

With that, I would be pleased to answer any questions.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

Thank you.

At this point, we'll start with the question round, please. I'd like to start with Mr. Blake Richards for the first round of six minutes.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I have several questions, which hopefully we'll have time for. Some may be more appropriate for one of you to answer and some for another, and I'll let you determine who should respond.

Starting with parliamentary privilege, there could be a number of areas of concern. You did address some of those, Mr. Dufresne, but certainly the one that seems to have come up a number of times is the idea of whether, where there are unstable Internet connections or where people have poor connections, all parliamentarians would be able to participate equally and fully in sittings of a virtual Parliament. I think we've seen enough evidence in committee meetings and otherwise to show reason for concern there.

What are your thoughts—this is probably for you, Mr. Dufresne—in terms of the privilege concerns that would exist for MPs if they weren't able to fully participate as a result of those Internet connection issues?