Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 23rd, 2020

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone. I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here.

Dr. Raymond, could you clarify the requirement to self-isolate for 14 days when going from one province to another? There seems to be some confusion about that.

First, does it apply to parliamentarians?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

I'm thinking about the provincial orders that I have seen most recently. I have not seen a specific exemption for members of Parliament, although there are exemptions made for individuals who are determined to be essential workers. I am not sure how members of Parliament fall into that categorization.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

If parliamentarians were required to self-isolate for 14 days, what would the criteria be? What does the 14-day period of isolation mean? Can we go out and get groceries? Is it mandatory to stay home?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

Self-isolation or quarantining, essentially, is to stay at home. You remain at home; you do not go out. Someone else supports you with groceries and all the rest. You remain at home, unless there is some need to seek medical attention or something similar. You remain in your home, separated as much as possible from others who may be in the home. You adopt rigorous cleaning and disinfection-type protocols. You self-monitor closely, and if you develop symptoms, you identify to public health immediately.

For some individuals who have been designated as essential workers, there are exemptions to the quarantine that permit them to leave the home to go to work and to return to the home, but they are expected to maintain the quarantine otherwise.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

We can expect a gradual reopening of child care centres and schools over the next few months. Some provinces have started talking about it.

Do you think coming to the House would pose a higher risk for parliamentarians who have children?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

That's an interesting question. I think all provinces and territories now.... We are very actively engaged in these conversations about how to reintroduce what we once thought of as normal activities into our experience. No action stands alone, so determining that someone is to go back to work is associated with someone having to arrange child care, and that sort of thing. It's associated with an entire workplace having to gear up and take on appropriate preparedness and response activities. Nothing happens in isolation, so each of these measures has a fan-out effect.

Clearly, resuming these activities, easing up, causes us to have concern that we will see a resurgence of cases. We should be prepared, as we ease back into something resembling our previous patterns of behaviour, that if we see resurgence of cases, we will have to respond very rapidly to re-contain things. We may be seeing a situation where we ease up and release some of the restrictions on different aspects of life—return to work, child care or school—but we should also be very prepared to see those restricted again if we see a resurgence of cases.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

If an employee or a parliamentarian were found to have COVID-19, is there a contingency plan in place right now to deal with that?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

The Public Health Agency of Canada would not be involved in a particular plan for an individual or place. I would suggest perhaps your administrative individual could probably answer that for you. It sounds as though they have put some plans in place, but that would not be under the purview of the Public Health Agency of Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Dr. Raymond.

Ms. Blaney, go ahead, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Hello, everybody. Thank you both for those very important presentations.

First of all I want to say that I was able to sit in the first smaller Parliament. Part of the reason that I, as a British Columbian, was able to sit there was that I stayed. When I came back home to B.C., I self-quarantined with my family for two weeks. I arrived home, and my family wasn't there because they had gone to get my son who was away at university. They drove him back instead of having him fly, just trying to keep him safe. Then we stayed in the home. Family members and friends brought us food. It was very weird. We did that because we knew things were happening, and I certainly did not want to be unintentionally infecting anyone in my constituency and in my riding, so we made the decision to do that.

I'm also hearing from constituents in my riding who are health professionals—nurses, doctors and caregivers—who are now living in their RVs and self-isolating from their families. It's heartbreaking to hear stories from some of those health professionals who are talking about looking over the fence and watching their kids play but not being able to hug them. People are making some really massive decisions to make sure they take care of the health and well-being of their community and their family.

First of all I want to talk about the issue that Mr. Brassard brought up, the idea of having a venue that provides spacing for members of Parliament.

I have some questions around that: What about the workers? How is morale for all of the workers in the House of Commons who are having to come in and work with Parliament? You have 32 parliamentarians, but how many staff does that require to look after them? There is a question about the amount of cleaning. There was discussion about how often they're cleaning in those high areas. When the House is actually sitting for the day, or in our case overnight, how much more cleaning is happening? What does that look like? Are there appropriate spaces?

I think of the amazing interpreters—and that makes me remember to slow down—who are doing so much work in a very unusual environment. For them to be able to do their work effectively, there are so many challenges. I don't know if those spaces would provide for them.

I'm opening it up to both of you to answer given your expertise. The other factor, even having 338 parliamentarians spaced out nicely over those spaces, is flying. For me to fly to Ottawa it's an epic journey. I'm on Vancouver Island. At this point I actually can't fly from my riding. I would have to drive a substantial way to get on a plane.

That's half of my time already, but if you could talk about some of those challenges, I would really appreciate it so we all have clarity.

Mr. Patrice, if you could answer, that would be amazing.

[Michel Patrice]

I'm going to start by saying that your administration is an amazing and committed staff. Morale is good. I am also going to disclose that people are working very hard and long hours, but we're proud to support the House of Commons and members of Parliament.

In terms of numbers to support the House when it's sitting, when it's not sitting right now in the current situation, in terms of all our facilities and over the precinct, we have about 135 staff on site. We have many facilities, and that does not include the protective service personnel. For sittings such as the one we had last Saturday, you can add another 55 people, so that's roughly 190 people when the House is sitting in those extraordinary times.

A lot of our staff are working from home or supporting from home. We're happy that we can provide the services, but we also are always looking for feedback in areas where we could do better or better support you.

Thank you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Dr. Raymond, could you speak to the part about asking parliamentarians, the 338 of us, to fly across the country to come to a place where we may have appropriate social distance and what some of the potential barriers would be around having all of the staff required to host us?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

I think I would probably give you the same advice that I have given a number of different businesses, which is that there needs to be a fairly thorough risk assessment done that looks at all aspects of the equation.

As you say, it's not simply a matter of bringing the core group back together. There are the ripple effects. There's the associated staff, there's the support, there's the environmental cleaning and so forth, and then there's the air travel, with the going back and forth and the impact on families at home or perhaps people are going to stay here in Ottawa.

For all of those groups of people, you have to think about what their risks are. What are their risks of being exposed to the COVID-19 virus? How many people do they come in contact with in a day? Are they individuals who will encounter a large number of people? Are they individuals who may be in settings where they may be more likely to come into contact?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Dr. Raymond. That's all the time we have.

We are going to continue into our second round, with five minutes for Mr. Eric Duncan, please.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Good morning, everybody, and thank you for this opportunity. I want to build on Mr. Brassard's comments and on Dr. Duncan's and maybe vent a bit.

I have the utmost respect, as you know, for all of my colleagues here who have gone around in the line of questioning in the discussions, but I just want to speak about some of what I feel is a misleading perception that some members are advocating. We keep talking about a return to normal and the fear of that or what the consequences would be of a return to normal.

Respectfully, from what I've seen over the course of the last several days of our conversations about non-virtual or different options, I don't think that anybody here on this committee is advocating for a full return of 338 members into the chamber—nor are many parliamentarians—and having all of the staff and support staff there. Some questions were asked about the number of people in a normal working day. I agree with what I think Dr. Raymond said, which is that the new normal is going to be different from the normal that we had before.

I certainly agree with that, but I fear that there is a perception out there, perhaps from Canadians who are listening to this and thinking that there's not physical distancing or that we're jeopardizing the health of each other by perhaps meeting in some ratio format continually in West Block. Ms. Blaney was one who was there. I waved to her from the gallery at the first emergency sitting. Mr. Gerretsen was there as well. I was a backup member, but I got to see it first-hand, and I have to say that the House of Commons administration did an excellent job from a health perspective when it came to our safety.

The physical distancing was I think very well done. I noted what Ms. May said at one point, which I respect, about the opposition lobbies and some of the walking there, but I think that other [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Mr. Duncan, I paused your time, of course, while this technical difficulty was happening.

We're going to start from where we left off.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you. I'll mention that I'm going to talk to the industry committee about better rural Internet service when this is all done.

To build on the point, again, of what I was saying about the interpreters, I was caught up on that aspect there and some of the challenges. They're in the building already. Security is there.

I will make the comment constructively that over the course of the last month or so the Prime Minister has made announcements every day. That's important for Canadians. I'm not begrudging that on an in-person level. The ministers have followed up in West Block on a near-daily basis, giving Canadians information that they want to know in these challenging times. I respect that. Again, there's a role and a necessity for Canadians to hear the news from the government. Also, in that same building there's an opportunity for all of us, as members of the government or opposition, to ask questions and give the feedback on what we're hearing from constituents on a daily basis.

If a media conference can be done, that requires interpretation, that requires technical support, that requires security, that requires the cleaning process. If that is being done seven days a week without problem, in the West Block, I think with physical distancing, proper health and safety protocols, as have been done, it is not unreasonable to continue to have this ratio, this safe number of members who can have some presence. Most continue to work from home, like myself. The ministers are in Ottawa and likely not travelling back and forth. We can have some team members who are there and who are doing that.

I have the utmost respect for Dr. Raymond and public health officials and our House of Commons administration. At the end of the day, I want people to understand that when we have these conversations we are not advocating for 338 people to come back. The pages don't have to be there. Our staff don't have to be there. We can have these ratio numbers.

In closing, I would make the argument that if it's safe for ministers to do press conferences in the West Block at a ratio level, combining a physical presence and a technological virtual presence, surely to heavens, as parliamentarians, we can do the same as a fundamental part. We can balance those aspects of not having to travel back and forth into our ridings or doing that for extended periods of time. Where there's a will, there's a way to do it safely.

I've been very proud of the three in-person sessions. I wish that when we do get back to normal, the House of Commons and question period look more like the three that we've had during this time—constructive questions, sometimes tough questions and proposals. I think at the end of the day, because of that presence in the chamber, because of those questions and the ability for all members to share what they're hearing in their ridings, we're actually getting better government policy at the end of the day. We've seen changes under the business wage subsidy. We've seen changes in the CERB. That has benefited Canadians.

I want to wrap up my comments by saying more of a rant, and maybe giving Dr. Raymond and her House administration time to breathe themselves. I believe there is no member who is not acting in good faith, who is not wanting to have health and safety measures as they are when they come to Ottawa, to protect themselves while here within the West Block. I think there's a balance there.

I go back to what's being done with media conferences and some of the other features, what's already happening and the staff who are already there. We can do a form of that there safely. I wanted to make sure that this presence, and that perception of what Canadians think some of us may be advocating for, is in no way unsafe. The three sessions we've already had are perfect, excellent models of a safe and good way of doing it. They can be tweaked here and there, I'm sure, to make it even better.

Again, we can add some virtual aspects to make sure—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

We are almost done for time, Mr. Duncan. I'll give about 30 seconds for an answer.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I'm not sure if anybody wants to take that or not. There wasn't really a question in there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

There are 30 seconds, if anyone would like to make a comment based on those comments.

Seeing none, we'll move on to Ms. Petitpas Taylor, please.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

First, I would like to take an opportunity to thank the House administration staff for all the work that they've been doing over the past month or so to support us during these very difficult times. I also wanted to take a moment to thank the public health officials for the leadership that they've shown and they continue to show. We truly appreciate the work that they do.

On March 13, we had 197 confirmed or presumptive cases of COVID-19 in this country. The Board of Internal Economy, at that time, took preventative measures to protect the health and safety of staff, of MPs, and even of members of the public by putting some restrictions in place.

Today in Canada, when I look at the numbers on the public health site, I see that we have 40,824 cases of COVID-19.

Do we think that it's wise at this time to loosen the measures that we imposed just over a month ago on the parliamentary precinct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I think this question is probably for Dr. Raymond. Is that correct?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It's for Dr. Raymond or even the House administration staff. It's for both, actually.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay. Could you both answer quickly?

[Dr. Barbara Raymond]

Our advice has been consistently to stay the course and to continue. We have asked Canadians to make very extraordinary sacrifices in order to see some flattening of the curve, and our advice to all Canadians is to stay the course.

If there is a determination that it is necessary to return to a workplace, we would recommend that a very careful risk assessment be undertaken, that all of the risks be addressed and that there be a plan in place to rapidly reintroduce measures if further cases are identified.