Evidence of meeting #13 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Thank you for that.
Madam Chair, do I have time for one more question, really quickly?
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota
Really quickly. You have 30 seconds for a question and 30 seconds for an answer.
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
This question is for Mr. O'Brien.
I noticed that you talked about there being some reluctance with electronic voting. I wonder whether you are aware of other jurisdictions that are rapidly implementing some form of remote or electronic voting at this time, including New Zealand, Brazil, the EU, France, Spain, the U.S., and some of the others we heard from this morning. Scotland and Wales are both doing it, and even the U.K Parliament looks to be testing these kinds of electronic voting at this time. Are you aware of these trends?
1:50 p.m.
Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual
Yes I am, and I congratulate them for doing so. I guess my point was that I did not want to isolate a virtual technology just to electronic voting to the exclusion of the other two stages of making a decision.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
Just quickly, I find it somewhat ironic that Mr. Turnbull was talking about [Inaudible—Editor], yet cut off the last speaker mid-answer.
It kind of goes to the limitations of technology and why we need to be in person and how if we go down the digital slope, it's a slippery slope, I believe. That has been shown even today.
I'd like to get our presenters' view on this. Was my privilege as a member of this committee questioned when I was kicked off three times today by Zoom even though my Internet here in Saskatoon is probably as good as anywhere else in Canada? It's not a rural, remote or northern riding, but on three occasions my privilege has been compromised because I was not able to hear the speaker, the question, the answer and the interpretation. This has happened in just over two hours' time. Was my privilege as a member of this committee impacted by technology?
1:50 p.m.
Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual
I was never an expert on privilege, but I heard many grievances in my time as a table officer, and I think the Speaker would say that you have a grievance, but I'm not sure your fundamental privileges have been breached, which to me means intentional obstruction preventing you from participating.
1:55 p.m.
Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual
Mr. Tochor, I won't disagree with you.
I'm not an expert on privilege either, like Gary just said about himself, but being a former speaker of the Saskatchewan legislature, I don't think your case would be a case of privilege, but certainly a frustration. Technology is improving and I think it will improve even more as they work out the bugs, and I'm sure from here on in you'll be much better able to connect.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
Corey Tochor Conservative Saskatoon—University, SK
My next question is for Mr. Barnhart.
We talked about the cut and thrust of having in-person meetings. It's not going to be the same digitally versus if we're in person.
On the heckling, I would agree that it can be distracting. The Speaker has the right to have decorum in the chamber. However, there are aspects of informal communication...that heckling is a part of Westminster democracy. A member's ability to take part in the informal side of things is part of our tradition.
As technology improves, or the platform is developed more for parliamentarians, there's a gap. I'm not comfortable going live, even though we are right now, with virtual sittings. We should take the time to understand. If we agreed to have two sets of standing orders, it would take probably months, not weeks, to come to a conclusion on what they would look like.
Mr. Barnhart, could I get your comments on how we would develop that?
1:55 p.m.
Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual
I would not want to see rules for going totally electronic or digital on a permanent basis. I think they're a good way of making sure that Parliament is able to meet during a pandemic, for example, but I'm hopeful that once a pandemic is over, Parliament would go back to its traditional way of meeting in person. I think there are great advantages to that.
1:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota
Thank you, Mr. Barnhart.
Next we have Ms. May for four minutes, please.
1:55 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Thank you very much, and thank you to colleagues for allowing me this opportunity.
I can see all of your faces. I'm wondering if any of the witnesses heard the last panel of witnesses from Scotland, Wales and the U.K. Could you nod? Okay, you did not hear it.
One thing I found fascinating came from the representative from the U.K. He said the U.K. Speaker had been very concerned in the pandemic that all members of Parliament had access to everything, so rather than have one sitting that was physical with a limited number of MPs, and another session that was virtual, they've adopted a hybrid model in the Palace of Westminster.
Mr. Maingot, I wonder if you could comment on this idea of privileges and participation rights, because this appealed to me. People who are at a distance, like me—I travel from B.C. to Ottawa, and I missed PROC yesterday because it's a day and a half of travel these days—could participate virtually while a skeletal number could be present physically in Parliament. How does that strike you?
1:55 p.m.
Former Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons, and Author of “Parliamentary Privilege in Canada”, As an Individual
That sounds fine. It seems to me that would be a technical matter for the House of Commons, and it could be technically provided.
The House's privileges include how they do their internal proceedings. That would be part of internal proceedings, it seems to me, a combination of the virtual and regular. It seems to me that it could be put into effect technically because the House has the right to proceed in the manner they feel is necessary for them to perform their function, which is to provide legislation.
Provided the government is accountable, it seems to me that it could be done. They have the right to proceed in a manner they see as fit and necessary to do their functions.
2 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Thank you, Mr. Maingot.
Would you like to comment on this as well, Mr. O'Brien?
2 p.m.
Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual
I totally agree with the hybrid approach, with what the Speaker of the U.K. is recommending. It might be a great way to proceed for us, and proceed slowly if possible.
2 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
If I have time, I'll go to Mr. Barnhart for his comments.
I'm with you. I don't think heckling is part of our parliamentary tradition.
I wonder if you have any comment on that.
2 p.m.
Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual
I totally agree with the hybrid concept as well, and even under the current circumstances, heckling is not great. When Parliament resumes in the House of Commons I hope heckling will be reduced much more at that time.
Thank you.
2 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Thank you.
I have two seconds left, but I'll yield them to someone else.
2 p.m.
Liberal
2 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much.
I have a question for Mr. Barnhart.
You mentioned the possibility of a confidence vote, since we're in a minority government. We're going to have to make recommendations to the committee, and those recommendations could have lasting implications. What I'd like to know is whether you would advise us to disregard the fact that we're in a minority government, or whether we should factor that into our recommendations.
2 p.m.
Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual
As I was saying in my presentation, if you have the House meeting with 20 people, let's say, and physical distancing and an agreement as to which parties are there, it then calls into question a vote of no confidence.
If you have the hybrid approach of members in the House as well as electronically, then the usual rules of confidence would apply. Then it doesn't become a question.
2 p.m.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
I'd also like to hear what Mr. Maingot and Mr. O'Brien have to say about whether or not we should factor the minority government situation into our recommendations.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota
Mr. Maingot, at this point should we be factoring in that we're a minority government?