Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 30th, 2020

Evidence of meeting #13 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Parliamentary Duties and the COVID-19 Pandemic

MPs speaking

Ginette Petitpas Taylor

Also speaking

Matthew Hamlyn Strategic Director, Chamber Business Team, Chamber and Committees, House of Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Siwan Davies Director of Assembly Business, National Assembly for Wales

Ian McCowan Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Governance Secretariat, Privy Council Office

David McGill Clerk and Chief Executive, Scottish Parliament

Bill Ward Head of Broadcasting, Scottish Parliament

Gordon Barnhart Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual

Joseph Maingot Former Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons, and Author of “Parliamentary Privilege in Canada”, As an Individual

Gary W. O'Brien Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual

1:20 p.m.

Former Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons, and Author of “Parliamentary Privilege in Canada”, As an Individual

Joseph Maingot

You heard from members in other jurisdictions, which is very appropriate. When the committees were broadcast, it was broken in gradually. There was some concern at the beginning about immunity, but that was settled. It was settled of course by the U.K., and we agreed with that. But it's a question of its being brand new, and necessity is the mother of invention.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thank you.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ruby Sahota

That's all the time we have.

Next up is Mr. Gerretsen, please.

April 30th, 2020 / 1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Maingot, I'd like to pick up from where Mr. Richards left off. Just so we're absolutely clear here, it's your opinion, as a former law clerk, that parliamentary privilege would not be breached as a result of not having the proper Internet connection. Is that correct?

1:20 p.m.

Former Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons, and Author of “Parliamentary Privilege in Canada”, As an Individual

Joseph Maingot

I'm not sure I understand the MP's—

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Mr. Richards was asking about the Internet connection and whether there could be parliamentary privilege if you didn't have access. From my understanding, you're saying that you don't see that as a breach of parliamentary privilege.

1:25 p.m.

Former Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons, and Author of “Parliamentary Privilege in Canada”, As an Individual

Joseph Maingot

Well, no, of course, if you were connected to the committee, you would be part of the virtual committee, as you are right now. You're all connected to it and part of it. Somebody outside of that, if they're not part of that virtual committee, they're not—

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

But let's say I had an Internet connection and something happened. For example, a cellphone tower went down and my Internet connection suddenly became unavailable. Would you regard that as a breach of my parliamentary privilege?

1:25 p.m.

Former Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons, and Author of “Parliamentary Privilege in Canada”, As an Individual

Joseph Maingot

We're bringing in Mother Nature now.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Well, that's what I mean. My interpretation of what you were saying to Mr. Richards is that it depends on the obstruction, like you being prevented from getting to be part of the meeting, and that wouldn't necessarily be the case. Is that correct?

1:25 p.m.

Former Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons, and Author of “Parliamentary Privilege in Canada”, As an Individual

Joseph Maingot

That would be a technical matter that a member would raise in the House to try to resolve.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Okay.

Mr. Barnhart, you spoke about seeing the possibility of committee work being done more regularly by this type of platform. You mentioned smaller meetings and it being easier to manage the people. That's something that's very similar to what former speaker Milliken said when he came on a few days ago. It didn't seem as though he was against the idea of Parliament operating that way. In fact, he said that he saw some technical restrictions to making it more difficult to occur.

Is that your interpretation of it?

1:25 p.m.

Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual

Gordon Barnhart

Yes, I think that interpretation is correct.

I'll respond to your first question, though, in terms of whether it's temporary. I'm a traditionalist. Once this pandemic is over, I would love us to return to having the House sitting in the House of Commons and committees working. Now, committees travel across Canada and that sort of thing. I would like to see that return, in that sense.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Yes.

1:25 p.m.

Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual

Gordon Barnhart

In the meantime, we're facing a pandemic, and rather than having just press releases from time to time, I really want to see Parliament active and very much involved.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Sure. And I think—

1:25 p.m.

Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual

Gordon Barnhart

In terms of—

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Please go ahead and finish your thought.

1:25 p.m.

Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual

Gordon Barnhart

My point is that in terms of the committees, it involves a smaller number. As we're seeing today, we have roughly eight to 12 people online. Other than Gary with his connection, which happens from time to time, I think it's working very well. I can see everyone. I can hear people.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

The truth of the matter is that, from time to time, I might miss a plane, or I might miss my ride. I drive in from Kingston, and I might get stuck in traffic.

1:25 p.m.

Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual

Gordon Barnhart

Yes. I appreciate that not having the Internet or the Wi-Fi is a problem, but as I mentioned, today I'm doing this without Wi-Fi. I'm doing it through a cellphone.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Right.

1:25 p.m.

Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual

Gordon Barnhart

You are correct that perhaps the whole cell system could go down, or the whole electrical system could go down, but those are—

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm running out of time. I wanted to follow up on a point.

1:25 p.m.

Former Clerk of the Senate, As an Individual

Gordon Barnhart

No problem.