Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 4th, 2020

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Smith, do you have anything to recommend, perhaps in terms of improving debate between the parties during the crisis?

[Dale Smith]

I guess I would just say that it's for the parties themselves to work stuff out.

If I have a second, I want to make my own particular caution to the notion of a business committee, in that what that ends up doing is time-allocating all business. That needs to be under consideration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Next up is Ms. Blaney for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Blaikie, in your initial report to us, you talked about the importance of predictability around any process that we take in terms of voting. I'm wondering if you could expand on what you mean by that.

[Bill Blaikie]

If you have a lot of members who are working from home and are not in the chamber, unless they're virtually tied to their computer...because they may also be involved in things like child care. They may be sharing technology at home with a spouse who's also working at home. The fact is that no matter what kind of voting you arrive at—block voting, for instance—there will be an opportunity for members to express their dissent from what the party position might be on any particular thing. No matter what kind of voting you adopt, if in fact you do adopt voting, all of these things would be easier to do if there was predictability. This already happens in the House. You can stack votes. You can agree that all the divisions that come up within the week can be dealt with on a Thursday afternoon or whatever the case may be.

All I'm saying is that particularly for the benefit of the members who might be working from home and who won't actually be in the chamber, they should know when votes are going to take place so that they can properly communicate with their whips as to what their position is, particularly if it differs from the party position. That's what I mean by predictability, by and large.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Bill, you know one of the challenges for us right now is the fact that our members have to travel all across Canada to get to Ottawa. I know I certainly would have to travel a great distance, and I'm from a place where we haven't had any COVID-19 for close to three weeks. I'm just wondering if you could speak to what other local parliaments or legislatures are doing to address moving in a smaller country or province.

[Bill Blaikie]

Let me say that I take your point: Do the people of Vancouver Island really want their members of Parliament going to Ontario and coming back every week if we were to resume normal sittings in the context of the pandemic ongoing?

I would also say, apropos of your question, that whatever people think of what the federal Parliament is doing, it is struggling to continue to be a parliament in a pandemic context, which is more than you can say about, for instance, the Manitoba legislature, where the premier just adjourned it, and there's not going to be a real legislature, virtual legislature or any kind of legislature at all until the fall. In Manitoba, you have a low-risk environment, and you have a situation where most members don't have to travel very far. They certainly don't have to get on planes, most of them, to come to the legislature.

For the Canadian Parliament, in spite of the criticisms that have been levelled at it—sometimes you see these things on Facebook or on other social media about MPs not working—the fact of the matter is that they are working. They're working in their constituencies, and they're working in the context of this committee and other contexts to make sure that Parliament continues in some meaningful way. I hope that the recommendations of the committee will help that along greatly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you. I think that was a good way to end off today's meeting.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here today. I hope you are all doing well, wherever you are.

Mr. Smith, I look forward to seeing your commentary, if you have any, after this.

Of course, Mr. Bosc, I'm sure you'll be here at some future committee meeting once again.

Thank you, to all the witnesses, for being here, and thank you to all the members for your participation.

We're going to switch to panel two now. We will suspend until 12:30 p.m. Let's be back at 12:30 p.m. sharp for the second panel of provincial legislatures. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Welcome back. We're going to get started.

Can everyone click on the top right-hand corner of their screen and ensure that they are in gallery view? With this view, you should be able to participate in a grid view and see all of the participants at one time.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you're ready to speak, you can click on the microphone to activate your mike.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. Interpretation in this video will work very much like a regular committee meeting. You have a choice at the bottom of your screen of “floor”, “English” or “French”. As you are speaking, if you plan to alternate from one language to the other, you will need to switch the interpretation channel so that it aligns with the language that you are speaking. You may want to allow for a short pause when switching between languages.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, please ensure that your microphone is on mute. The use headsets is strongly encouraged.

We can begin with our opening statements from the three witnesses we have before us today.

Mr. Farnworth, you have provided a written copy of your opening statement, which will make it quite easy for the interpreters to be able to interpret, even if there are sound challenges. We're only worried about the question and answer period, but hopefully they'll be able to troubleshoot your issue by then.

Welcome to all the witnesses. Thank you. I'm sure you're very busy with your parliamentary duties in your provinces. We are very happy to have you here with us to share your insights and your expertise.

First off, we have the Honourable Siobhan Coady, Minister of Natural Resources and government House leader from the House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Siobhan Coady, Minister of Natural Resources and Government House Leader, House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador]

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to appear before you this afternoon.

Thank you for the invitation to appear before the committee. It is certainly a privilege to be with you today and to see some of my former colleagues from the House of Commons. I value the role of this committee as a former member of Parliament and as government House leader and Minister of Natural Resources in Newfoundland and Labrador. I am also chair of the Select Committee of Rules and Procedures Governing Virtual Proceedings.

These are indeed challenging times. Two and a half months ago, the idea of having Parliament meet in anything other than its traditional form was not contemplated. Today many legislatures around the world, and indeed here in Canada, are preparing various means of allowing assembly.

As Sam Cawthorn once said, “Crisis moments create opportunity. Problems and crisis ignite our greatest creativity and thought leadership as it forces us to focus on things outside the norm.” Indeed, that's what all of us are doing

Our House adjourned on March 12, 2020, for a regular constituency week break during the spring sitting and was scheduled to resume on March 23. Before adjourning, we were smart enough at the time, I guess, to put forward a motion, which was passed, that allowed an extension of the adjournment by the Speaker if advised by government that it was in the public interest. At that time, COVID was just starting to appear in the province and across the country.

Effective March 18, the Minister of Health and Community Services here in Newfoundland and Labrador declared COVID-19 a public health emergency under the Public Health Protection and Promotion Act, and it continues in effect today. As a result, the House did not resume as scheduled on March 23.

Special one-day sittings were held on March 26 and May 5 to deal with business of urgent public importance in this unprecedented situation. The House met on those days with a minimum quorum of members. Our House of Assembly has 40 members and a minimum quorum of 10, including the Speaker. By consent, routine business was waived and the House proceeded immediately to notices of motion and orders of the day, except on May 5, when we allowed for oral questions. The public galleries were closed to visitors, and House officials in the chamber were kept to a bare minimum.

When the House met on May 5, it passed a resolution to establish the Select Committee of Rules and Procedures Governing Virtual Proceedings. The resolution provides authority for the committee to determine the manner in which virtual proceedings of the House of Assembly may be held. It provides that virtual proceedings may include a proceeding of the House with any combination of members physically present in the chamber and members present remotely by other technological means, including video conference or audio-only platforms.

The select committee was established due to the exigencies of the COVID-19 pandemic to identify how members may fulfill their parliamentary duties as legislators and to provide for accountability and transparency while complying with public health guidance. The select committee is composed of the six members of our Standing Orders Committee, the House leaders of the opposition caucuses and one of our two independent members. To date, the select committee has had five meetings, all of which were conducted by virtual means, which is a first for our legislature.

There were a few key principles that led our deliberations. All members are duly elected under separate writs of election and all enjoy the parliamentary privilege necessary to do their work and represent their constituents. Any model of a hybrid virtual Parliament must take into account the individual privileges of members and the collective privileges of the House as a whole.

We also recognize that the mace is integral to the functioning of the House of Assembly and is the symbol of authority of the House and the Speaker through the House. The mace must be present for the House to be properly constituted.

The committee has heard that House proceedings can be distinguished as scrutiny proceedings, which are questioning proceedings, and substantive proceedings, wherein decisions are made. Substantive proceedings include voting, which is a core duty performed by parliamentarians. This invites more complex procedural, practical and legal considerations.

The committee has discussed such items as virtual meeting platforms and technology requirements across a very large geographic area; considerations for scrutiny versus substantive or decision-making proceedings; implications for privilege; logistical elements, such as attire, appropriate background displays and training for members; procedural elements, such as place of speaking, recognition of speakers, how routine proceedings like members' statements, ministerial statements, oral questions, notices of motion, tabling of documents and petitions are conducted in a hybrid setting; and the process of debate on resolutions and legislation in a hybrid setting. We will implement procedures to provide speaking order on the various elements in advance.

With respect to voting, the select committee has considered and discussed options, but we have not yet reached a final decision.

The House of Assembly has integrated video conferencing with the broadcast system and conducted rehearsals that were successful.

The select committee must report no later than July 1, 2020. Once it tables its report, the resolution provides that the report will be deemed adopted by the House.

The House will convene again on June 9, with all members physically present implementing special measures to accommodate appropriate physical distancing and compliance with public health guidance. We will have 34 members present in the chamber, four in the Speaker’s gallery and one in the public gallery. All members will have microphones and will be able to participate fully. We can confirm that members will be required to wear masks when moving about the chamber and the precinct. Masks will not be required when members are seated at their desks or speaking.

The public gallery and Speaker’s gallery will be closed to the public and employees. The press gallery will be open with a cap on the maximum number of media attending at one time to ensure appropriate physical distancing. Only those employees who are needed on site will be in the building.

There is an approved plan that will require adjustments to the chamber that are more significant, such as the installation of plexiglass, which will not be ready in time for next week’s sitting, mainly due to a procurement issue and delays, of course. This will allow all members to be in the chamber at one time. Public Health officials were engaged when planning the various chamber configurations, and approval was sought from the chief medical officer.

While the House resumes in person next week, the select committee will continue with its task of determining the manner in which the House may conduct virtual proceedings.

In closing—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I'll let you do your closing if it's short.

[Siobhan Coady]

I will paraphrase Justin Trudeau from his book Common Ground, which states that, in the end, we all have to come together as parliamentarians if we are to get anything done. Our political opponents are not our enemies; they are our neighbours.

I truly believe that through co-operation we can ensure the people’s work is done.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Minister.

Next we have the Honourable Mike Farnworth, Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General.

Mr. Farnworth.

[Mike Farnworth, Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General of British Columbia, and Government House Leader, Legislative Assembly of British Columbia]

Good afternoon, back east. I am speaking to you from my home office in Port Coquitlam, which is on the traditional lands of the Kwikwetlem nation.

In British Columbia, our current legislature is not in session at the moment. We have a total of 87 members, which includes 42 B.C. Liberal Party members, 41 B.C. NDP members, two B.C. Green Party members and two independent members, being the Speaker and the former leader of the Green Party. We have a confidence and supply agreement between the B.C. NDP and B.C. Green Party. We have fixed dates for elections. The last general election was in May 2017. The next election is scheduled for October 2021.

In order to function, we have to ensure we have—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Minister Farnworth, could I ask you to slow down just a tad and also to try to speak closer to your computer?

[Mike Farnworth]

Okay. I am speaking very closely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

[Mike Farnworth]

In terms of B.C.'s experience, we have seen cross-party collaboration on the arrangements for the special March 23 sitting, ongoing parliamentary committee meetings and the hybrid summer session. It's been a very productive relationship with opposition House leader Mary Polak and third party House leader Sonia Furstenau. I want to thank both of them for their advice and input.

As well, B.C.'s clerk of the Legislative Assembly, Kate Ryan-Lloyd, and her team have done outstanding work in providing members with the procedural tools, technologies, and health and safety measures we need to serve our constituents in this unprecedented time.

On March 23 we had a special sitting of the Legislative Assembly. During the regularly scheduled March 5 to March 23 adjournment, it became clear that the Legislative Assembly needed to meet urgently to consider and authorize new spending and legislative measures to respond to COVID-19. I worked with the other House leaders on arrangements for a half-day special sitting on March 23. The opposition was consulted on the content of the legislation going forward.

It was an all-party representation, with 14 members attending in person. We were physically distant in the chamber, with reduced staff and enhanced cleaning protocols. We had a deputy chair of the committee of the whole presiding over the proceedings, as both the Speaker and Deputy Speaker were self-isolating due to recent travel. We adopted a motion that allowed members to speak and to vote from a seat other than their assigned place for the day's sitting to allow for physical distancing. We continued daily routine business, but it was streamlined to question period and reports from committees.

Members considered and approved the 2020-21 supplementary estimates of $5 billion to support the government's COVID-19 action plan, and passed a related supply act. A bill to provide workers with unpaid job-protected leave due to COVID-19, as well as three days of unpaid sick leave, was given careful scrutiny and adopted at all stages. Our adjournment motion allowed for the location and means of House sittings to be altered due to an emergency situation or public health measures by agreement of the Speaker and the House leaders of each recognized caucus.

British Columbia decided soon after the pandemic hit to move to a 100% virtual environment for parliamentary committee meetings. Our ability to do so quickly built on our successful experience with holding committee meetings by teleconference platforms, including Skype. Our provincial Constitution Act provides that committees may meet as they determine, unless there is explicit direction from the House.

We looked at teleconferencing options and ultimately decided to use the enhanced version of Zoom. We found it accessible, user-friendly and cost-effective. Plus, the enhanced version includes additional security features. In many cases, members were already using Zoom for virtual caucus and constituency meetings.

Our staff worked with committee chairs, deputy chairs and members to establish clear protocols for the conduct of meetings, to test the Zoom platform and to conduct trial runs. On March 30, B.C.'s first entirely virtual committee meeting took place. Two committees currently holding our first virtual public meetings are the annual budget consultations of stakeholders across the province and the committee that does the statutory review of the personal privacy protection act. As well, the children and youth and public accounts committees are currently meeting, and there are regular public and in camera meetings of B.C.'s parliamentary management board, the Legislative Assembly Management Committee.

Going forward for the summer, as government House leader, I am working with the Speaker and other House leaders on a plan to recall the Legislative Assembly for hybrid summer sittings. This plan will build on the March 23 experience of sitting with smaller numbers from all parties, plus participation of other members via Zoom.

The goal of the hybrid session is to ensure proceedings, as far as possible, involve a parity of treatment between members participating remotely and members participating in person in the legislative chamber. The House will facilitate active participation of as many members as possible from all caucuses and reflect broad regional representation from the province.

The summer sitting is expected to complete the 2020 budget debate, consider budget legislation and other government bills, along with providing government accountability. Key procedural elements, such as seeking recognition from the chair to speak, moving a motion and introducing a bill, making a member's statement, participating in question period or tabling a document will all be elements of a typical sitting day.

We are looking at procedural adaptions that will be subject to agreement by House leaders and approval by the House, which include hybrid summer sittings June 22 to possibly mid-August. This would include a proposed hybrid House, which would sit Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, with participation by members in the chamber and online via Zoom. It would also include a virtual committee of supply on Thursdays and Fridays to complete the estimates supply process. Members will be fully participating virtually in those proceedings.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

We are well over time now, but I wanted to get some of those last thoughts in as to what you are doing. I think there will be opportunity to ask you further questions in the questioning round.

Next we have Ms. Polak, who is also from the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. She's the House leader of the official opposition.

[Mary Polak, Official Opposition House Leader, Legislative Assembly of British Columbia]

Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to participate in the very important work of your committee.

In British Columbia, as Mike said, we have benefited from a generally collaborative approach to management of the House. This collaboration has been even more pronounced as we face the challenge of carrying on the business of the people during a time of pandemic-driven restrictions.

On March 23, in an unprecedented one-day sitting of the House, we passed interim supply for government for nine months and moved important pandemic response legislation through all stages in one day. This was accomplished with the agreement of the official opposition and the third party. In order to make this possible, government provided to the opposition the draft legislation in advance, on a confidential basis.

On June 22, the British Columbia legislature will resume its spring session using a hybrid format. Members will be able to participate in person or online, with a designated maximum number allowed in the chamber at any given time. In preparation for this unprecedented session, I have participated in two simulations or mock sittings. While there are still some issues to be resolved, I’m confident we will be able to approximate a typical session experience for all members, as well as the public and press gallery.

Throughout the many planning discussions, by far the most important principle we have maintained is the right for every member to participate equally. It is important to note that with the exception of executive council, in other words cabinet members, no member is part of government. All members sit as representatives of their constituencies first and then may choose to align themselves with a political party within a caucus. They may choose to sit as an independent.

It is my belief that this feature of our parliamentary system, although widely misunderstood, should form the foundation of any changes made in order to adapt to the necessary health restrictions under which we currently find ourselves. It underscores the importance of this committee’s deliberations and, in my view, should be the starting point for any consideration of modified Standing Orders.

I thank you for your kind attention and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

First up, from the Conservatives, we have Mr. Tochor.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

No, Madam Chair, I think it's me up first.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay, Mr. Nater. I'm just going off the list. It must have changed.

Mr. Nater, go ahead.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

We're just keeping everyone on their toes today.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our guests today. It's great to hear the experiences from our provincial counterparts, whom I think are often great examples of where we can learn and where we can get ideas and advice from.

Very briefly, off the top, I want to say thank you to Minister Coady for mentioning the importance of the mace. I think that's an important ceremonial function, but it's also symbolic in terms of the power of our Parliament or the legislature, as the case may be. I appreciate that, Minister.

As well, I want to say thank you to each of our representatives today for talking about the collaborative approach among government and opposition parties. I think that's absolutely essential.

Ms. Polak, I think you mentioned a little about how some of that back and forth worked, and I think that's essential, but I want to get your input. As an opposition House leader, how essential is it going forward that any of these changes that are implemented are done with that consensus among the recognized parties?

[Mary Polak]

There are so many nuts and bolts to the operation of a daily sitting that you really only find out when you're testing it. Having had the mock sessions, that has hammered home for me the necessary co-operation. If you don't have it, then even just small technical things are difficult to hammer out.

I can't imagine how we would make this work if, between the House leaders, we weren't able to quickly...because that's the challenge. You need to make decisions quickly. In that environment, you don't have the luxury of time to consult for weeks and weeks on whether you should change this standing order to allow this or that. You need to operate, and you need to solve a problem in real time that, although it might sound nerdy and procedural, has a real impact on the participation of any given representative. You have a high-stakes proposition and very little time to solve it. If everything has to get passed on to a committee or if there's dissent that needs to be ironed out, additional time is taken, and you potentially lose the effective and essential participation of members.

I think it's absolutely critical, and our mock sessions, our test runs, have really proven that.