Procedure and House Affairs Committee on July 6th, 2020

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

There's been much discussion on it. I would hope that the direction would come from the committee, based on what we've given as far as facts go, rather than us dictating to the committee or suggesting to the committee what would be best. I think you should read through the literature and take a look at what we've put forward so far. I would hope that the committee would be able to make that decision.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I don't have any other questions, Madam Chair, if there's another member who would like to use the time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I believe Ms. Petitpas Taylor is raising her hand.

Go ahead. You have about one and a half minutes.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'll just ask a few questions since we have a bit of extra time.

I think, first and foremost, we would all recognize or agree that Canadians have taken the public health warnings very seriously when it comes to dealing with COVID-19. We certainly have seen a huge economic impact as a result of COVID-19 and the loss of life has been substantive in this country, but when we look at the overall measures that Canada has taken, we have a lot to be proud of.

I'm hearing a lot of talk about the investments that we could possibly be making with respect to developing an app. If we look at all businesses within the country right now, I think we are all looking at making sure that we have a continuity plan in the event that we have a second wave.

My first question would be for Monsieur Aubé.

On the cost of developing an app, would you be able to provide us with a bit of an estimate? No one is asking that direct question, but I'm wondering what the costs would be for developing an app that we could use for the continuity of Parliament.

[Stéphan Aubé]

As I said earlier in my comments, Madam Petitpas Taylor, right now we're leveraging the existing resources that are currently funded by the House for other activities. We've reprioritized some other activities in order to focus on this, because we want to ensure that we're ready if we're asked to be ready. I consider that to be a sunk cost, as it relates to the resources that are being used right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Unfortunately, that's all the time we have, but there is another opportunity coming up after the Conservatives go.

Mr. Brassard, you have five minutes.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have just a couple of questions.

I appreciate the fact that Mr. Gerretsen hasn't had a cavity in seven years. I haven't had a headache in the last week and a half, but I have one today and it usually appears when I'm around arrogance and condescension.

My next question is for the Speaker.

One of the issues that came up during the course of this study.... There has been a lot of talk about honourable members but, Mr. Speaker, I'm sure you can understand that the issue of voting electronically could be abused. It could be abused in the sense that perhaps a member in a close riding, for example during an election, wouldn't want to come to Ottawa because they are battling a close election, or there could be another circumstance where an MP who is charged with a serious criminal offence perhaps wouldn't want to be in Ottawa because then they would have to face the parliamentary press gallery and in some cases perhaps the opposition.

I'm wondering if there have been any circumstances considered at all where there would be consequences to those situations where it could be implied, or otherwise, that a member of Parliament is just avoiding their responsibility of being in the seat of Parliament in Ottawa for their own electoral purposes or to avoid the parliamentary press gallery in the event that they're charged with a serious criminal offence.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I believe that what we're looking at here is COVID-19. This is not an ongoing thing where people would be able to chime in and vote whenever. Once COVID-19 is over—or the safety period, the period of concern, is over—then we would return to normal proceedings.

I've seen other jurisdictions where they've used it for maternity leave or other areas. That's something, again, that would have to be taken into consideration, not only by the committee but by the members of Parliament themselves. However, at this point what we're looking at is how we deal with COVID-19 or any future pandemic and what will trigger that mechanism to work.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Part of the concern is that this could extend beyond COVID-19. In fact, Mr. Speaker, I don't like asking you a political question, but you were a Liberal candidate in the last election, and page 54 of the Liberal Party platform said, “with Parliament to introduce new technology or other institutional changes”.

As someone who was a Liberal candidate running on that platform, what was your understanding of what that commitment could look like? Would it be your understanding that the issues we're dealing with here today could satisfy the Liberal Party platform?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

As a progressive member of Parliament, I always want to see things work better and I want to see how we can improve on what we have. I think that's the way we all look at it, and I believe that's the same for all MPs. When we're looking at the system or the legislation that we're looking at, we want to make sure it's working better than what we have today. That's basically how I read it and how I see it. It's basically how we get things working better than they are today and serve Canadians better.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you.

I have one last question, for Mr. Aubé. On June 11, the committee voted to order the production of the House agreement with Zoom and related documents. Can you confirm whether any of those documents have been provided to our clerk, Mr. Aubé?

[Stéphan Aubé]

They have been provided, sir.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

They have been?

[Stéphan Aubé]

Yes.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you so much.

That's it, Madam Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Mr. Brassard, they were provided by the deadline and they were circulated to all committee members, so please check back.

Ms. Petitpas Taylor.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

How much time do I have, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

You have five minutes.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you so much. I may not be using all of my time, so if other committee members want to get ready, that would be fine.

I also want to take a moment to thank once again the witnesses for appearing today. You always shed a lot of light on the many questions we have, so thanks to each and every one of you for being here today.

I want to follow up on my questions to Monsieur Aubé. During my question, when talking about the issue of cost, you indicated that it's a “sunk cost”. What did you mean by that?

[Stéphan Aubé]

What I meant by that, Madam Petitpas Taylor, is that we're already paying the salaries of these employees right now, so, for preparedness, we reprioritized their activities in order to work on this. Recognizing that we're already paying their salaries, whether they're working on this or not, I consider that to be, by definition, a sunk cost, meaning that it's not an additional cost to the House of Commons, as it's recognized that they're already paid by the House of Commons.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

That's great. I just wanted to confirm that there's no additional cost being incurred as a result of working on the development of an app.

[Stéphan Aubé]

That was the intent.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

That's great.

I think we can all recognize as well, with respect to businesses across the country as I've indicated, that many of them are working to make sure they are prepared to deal with a second wave of COVID-19. All Canadians would expect that we, as parliamentarians, will do all we can to ensure that we can continue to do the important work that Canadians have sent us to do. I think it's very responsible on our part to ensure that we have the tools that we need to use if necessary and that we all stress that we want to be back in Ottawa as soon as possible to be that strong voice for our constituents.

I have another question for Monsieur Aubé. I feel as though I'm picking on you, so my apologies about that. During one of the lines of questioning, perhaps by Madame Blaney but I'm not sure, we talked about the issue of a hybrid system and the possibility that people would vote in person but also electronically, and how we would ensure that that would not take place. Maybe it was Madame Normandin.

You indicated at one point that there would have to be some types of controls put in place in order to ensure that that did not happen. Have you thought about those types of controls? If so, what would they look like?

[Stéphan Aubé]

There has been a lot of discussion on that subject. The first premise was to eliminate the possibility of this happening, so one of the recommendations made by Mr. Gagnon's group and my group was to all use the same system. That way electronically we could validate in real time whether people were voting once or twice because we could evaluate who was voting on the system.

That being said, right now if the committee asked whether in a hybrid voting system people could vote in the House using their in-person vote instead of using the system, that would be something that we, together with the people in Mr. Gagnon's shop, would need to look at to establish the controls and the processes. That being said, electronically we can actually ensure that the vote of one member is not tallied twice. We can actually control that. There's the ability for someone to enter a vote in person instead of using the electronic system, and we can ensure that it's not entered twice for the same person. That's fairly easy to do. It's just more a time issue and an efficiency issue when people are in the chamber.

If we're being asked to make sure that the people in the House are not also voting electronically, we will require some time at the end of a vote to ensure this doesn't happen.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

That's great.

I wonder if Mr. Gagnon has anything to add to that, because we often see him around the table making sure that we are voting appropriately.