Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 27th, 2020

[Bill Matthews]

Can I add a little context?

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Okay.

[Bill Matthews]

We have already talked about the idea of providing the costs associated with the options presented.

We will be presenting initial estimates. That will not be a budget, just to be clear.

The budget is established once we have determined all the details.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand correctly, there are several possible scenarios.

Will you present all of them and their associated costs to the committee and to Parliament?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much for your question.

We will be happy to provide preliminary cost estimates for the welcome centre and the chamber, and we will aim to do that very quickly, likely within four weeks or so. Then we will present those to the committee for discussion and consideration.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Okay.

We're always concerned about the fact that this is taxpayers' money. We shouldn't buy a Ferrari to pick up letters at the post office when a Honda will do. We have to make sure that we're meeting worthwhile needs rather than embarking on impressive construction projects. Otherwise, taxpayers will wonder how the government can justify grandiose buildings when the important thing is that the buildings be safe and functional.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much for your question.

Those are very important questions to consider.

The taxpayer is ultimately important here.

I agree with you on that.

Let's think about the visitor welcome centre, just as an example. I know that Mr. Wright raised the different scenarios with you, but it's a great example.

There are different scenarios, and the costing would differ depending on them. For example, in the visitor welcome centre, phase two, we could have one point of entry or multiple points of entry. The decisions taken surrounding those items are going to cost different amounts.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Okay.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I use that as an example. I will ask my team to present preliminary costing to you to help inform your decision-making process.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Ms. Blaney, for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Minister, for being here today. I appreciate the time you took with your presentation.

I enjoyed very much my tour of Centre Block. As a member who served in Centre Block—we've mentioned this before—I found it definitely a bit hard to see it under construction, but also it was good to be back.

One of the issues that's coming up here, and I think it is very important, is money, making decisions around money and understanding more clearly the process of how those decisions are made.

My first question for you, Minister, is on the sense of vision around cost. How is the process being done in figuring out what is required and what is wanted? How do you find the space between those two issues? As Mr. Richards mentioned earlier, the Senate is making some interesting requests for what they want. It's also about looking forward to the reality that the House and Parliament will change as a reflection of a growing population.

How are parliamentarians working with that process, for example, the input and the accountability, so that we can assess and understand, as representatives for our constituencies, the tax dollars that will be spent on those types of projects and choices?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

There are two main questions you're asking. One relates to the process for deciding costing, and the other relates to parliamentarians having input into the process. I'll take each of those questions in turn.

In terms of our process, I think we would all do well to remember that the long-term vision and plan set out in 2001 and then again in 2007—the plan for the parliamentary precinct—has been in place through multiple different governments. Some $4.5 billion in funding was approved for the LTVP, of which $3.5 billion has been spent to date. The LTVP is designed to be delivered through short-term rolling, government-approved programs of work, each of which is clearly defined and measurable with performance targets and schedule and budget milestones. Every year we produce an annual report, which my department will be more than pleased to share, that contains these milestones, the timelines and the budgetary considerations that we've been working under.

On the governance structure that is in place for making decisions, the current framework involves three levels, but it is overseen by the parliamentary administration. Of course, there are BOIE and CIBA. Those committees work with parliamentary partners, the MPs and the senators.

In my view, and as I mentioned in my speech, the decisions with regard to how MPs are able to participate in the process rest with those committees and the parliamentary administration.

In terms of parliamentarians having input into it, again, it's my view that the governance structure that is overseen by the parliamentary administration could streamline this process to a greater degree, perhaps by having a combined committee, so that decisions are streamlined and more efficiently made.

It's not in my purview to make that decision, but it's one that I would support if it were made.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much for that.

I want to express my appreciation for Mr. Turnbull's questions on sustainability. As we look to the future, retrofitting and looking at how we're going to sustain moving forward is really important. You talked a bit about the success that you feel we've had in this so far. How is that measured, and how is that reported back to the larger public? Are we seeing an articulation of some of these successes, as you've framed them, to the rest of the Canadian public to look at leadership in this area?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As I mentioned, sustainability targets are built into every project in the LTVP. We are constantly thinking of new ways for us to become more environmentally sustainable. In 2018, PSPC launched a three-year environmental sustainability strategy for the precinct. It focused on water conservation, waste reduction and energy use.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Wright, who will explain the public disclosure of this information.

[Rob Wright]

There are two elements that I can add to the minister's response. One is on GHG emissions. We had a specific target of a reduction of 40% compared to the 2005-06 baseline. In the past year, we've achieved a 56% reduction ahead of schedule. That's one element.

We have another specific target. The minister indicated the recycling of demolition materials. Our target is 80% recycling. We've consistently achieved over 90%. Between this building and the Senate of Canada Building, we achieved 93%.

We've achieved up to 97%. The Wellington Building was the highest we achieved, with 97% recycling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I just want to go back to where we left off. I was asking you about the allocation of space and when there's a disagreement, such as if the Prime Minister were to say that x amount of space was needed for the PMO, yet parliamentarians were to say no, that they needed room for something else. You said you wouldn't be the final decision-maker or arbiter in that. Who would be? Who would make those final decisions?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Well, as I said, the parliamentary administration is responsible for bringing together the members and senators in their respective decision-making bodies to determine what would be appropriate for the space that pertains to them, as well as their views on the budget and the timelines. My view is that the information would hopefully be made on a consensus basis and that I would be in a position to approve decisions that were made at committee.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay, but let's say those different bodies, or however we want to put it, the demands of the House of Commons and the demands of the Senate and the demands of the Prime Minister's Office were all to conflict with each other and there wouldn't be enough space to meet all those demands. Obviously, somebody has to make a final decision. Who is it?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As set out in the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act, I am the minister responsible for the day-to-day operations of the buildings and I am the official custodian of the buildings and the grounds of the precinct. As such, I ultimately could make the decision. However, my preference is to have in place a governance model where it is not the minister of the Crown who is making crucial decisions. My preference, and I think the preference of all of us, is to have a collaborative decision-making model where MPs are heard and making decisions about the space that, as elected representatives, they will occupy.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I understand. For sure, that puts you in a pretty awkward spot if there are those demands.

Say the Prime Minister were to really insist, as we've known him to do in the past with other ministers, on something being his way, that puts you in a very awkward spot. I understand that.

I know—

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Could I just...?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'd like to finish, because I have a question and I want to give some time to one of my other colleagues.

Before the election, I understand this committee came up with a unanimous report. One recommendation in that report was to have this committee have oversight of the full extent of the construction and the various actors within it. That recommendation wasn't adopted by the government before the election. I wonder if you would support that effort being renewed.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

As I just said, I believe it is imperative that we have input into the decision-making on the project from members of Parliament and those who have been elected to office. I myself, as a member of Parliament, feel this very strongly. However, I'm fully aware that we are a parliamentary democracy that has two decision-making chambers, one being the House of Commons and the other being the Senate, and in respect of that governmental structure, we need to ensure that there are participants from each house of government in the decision-making process.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay. I will turn the rest of my time over to Mr. Duncan.