Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 27th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

You have a little over one minute.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I speak really quickly, but this will challenge that.

Minister, thank you for being here. Congratulations on your new role.

Building on what you said, I appreciate your approach here. I struggle even still, after our meeting the other day, in regard to what role PROC has in this. We're a bit of a consultation; approvals go to BOIE. We have the House, the Senate, security, the library, Treasury Board and cabinet, and you. I really see a challenge here going forward with timely decisions and those types of things.

I appreciate your words and comments on some type of joint effort between the House and Senate, all these partners at the level of members and the Senate, whatever that may be. You mentioned that it is not for you to decide, but I think you could play a leadership role. It could be as simple as a letter or declaration. As the minister who has the final sign-off on this, your voice and, frankly, your background in corporate governance could go a long way towards doing this.

The comment I will make in my brief time is that these types of projects are important historically and culturally in terms of the building, but I also think it's important for us as elected officials. It's these types of projects on which members of the public look to us and we get a reputation, good or bad—and I say that in a bipartisan manner.

I will use the skating rink example. It used to be that Maple Leaf Gardens was the most popular skating rink in Canada. However, the one that was out on the front lawn a couple of years ago got more attention and more people talking.

Could you speak more about the role you could play or the voice you could provide to get this done? Being from a municipal background and coming here, my worry and my frustration is that we talk about it, the committee adjourns, and that's just the end of it.

Do you have a comment on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mr. Duncan. You're much over time now.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you. I didn't talk fast enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

No, you didn't, but they were good points.

Ms. Duncan.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and good morning, Minister. To you and your officials, thank you for coming. We appreciate your being so gracious with your time.

I would like to acknowledge my colleagues for recognizing your background, which is key in this role.

I will also touch on governance. After the fire of 1916, there was a joint committee struck, and Pearson reported weekly to that committee. The transcripts exist from that meeting. It's really important that the House, the Senate and the Library of Parliament, the parliamentary partners, work together.

I would welcome your thoughts.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you so much for both questions, which actually relate to each other in terms of thinking about alternatives to the current, somewhat fragmented, model that we have in place.

I would be in favour of any improvements to the current framework that would lead to better, more integrated decision-making among parliamentarians and their partners. It is so important to me for us to have an efficient and effective decision-making structure, given the magnitude and the importance of the project in front of us all.

As you know, the current framework involves three levels at which my department, BOIE and CIBA, parliamentary administration and parliamentary partners interact on decision-making, direction and oversight. That worked with regard to West Block, the Senate, the Library of Parliament and the Sir John A. Macdonald Building, but given the number of decisions we have in front of us and the desire to proceed in a timely and cost-effective way, I would be supportive of an integrated decision-making framework among parliamentarians and their partners.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you so much, Minister.

I'd also like to talk about the heritage. This really matters.

Centre Block is in many ways a memorial. It's a war memorial. That column in the rotunda was dedicated to those who were at war. Pearson wanted a tower to replace the Victoria Tower, the one that was destroyed in the fire. The new tower, that Peace Tower, was to commemorate the great peace.

If we talk about the Memorial Chamber of the Peace Tower, Pearson initially wanted all the names etched in the walls, but it soon became clear that this was not possible. It was decided, then, to have the book with hand-drawn calligraphy. It took 32 years to get that book into the chamber.

When people came into the Memorial Chamber, Pearson wanted them to walk on the same soil as those who died in the war. The floor comes from France and the altar stone from England. In fact, it's Hoptonwood limestone, which is the same stone as was used by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

The early Remembrance Days, before the Peace Tower, happened on the lawn of Parliament. That Memorial Chamber is so important to our Silver Cross mothers. The Silver Cross mothers are brought to the Memorial Chamber. They turn the page to her child, the one who was killed, and the carillon plays the regimental tune.

In 2027, we will mark the 100th anniversary of the dedication of the Peace Tower and the Memorial Chamber. We need to make sure we have that 100th anniversary.

I'd like to know how you're thinking about protecting the cultural heritage.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you so much for those remarks and the brief history lesson.

As you know, the building has such a rich history. It was first built just prior to Confederation, and rebuilt after the 1916 fire, as the Speaker mentioned in the House yesterday. As I've mentioned, and I know Rob has mentioned also, the protection of the heritage and history is critical to the rehabilitation. Whether we're talking about the Peace Tower, Centre Block and the chamber, the West Block or the Sir John A. Macdonald Building, we have consistently had the importance of heritage and history at the forefront of our decision-making.

The department has just finished up the archeological work in the area surrounding the building. Thousands of items were actually found, including two arrowheads. We are undertaking consultations with the Algonquins regarding those arrowheads.

All of that is to say that, despite the focus I have been placing in my remarks on sustainability, security and accessibility, those values are balanced at all times with the importance we place, and we must place, on the heritage of these buildings.

Rob, did you have anything you wanted to add?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Minister. That's all we're going to have time for.

Mr. Brassard or Mr. Tochor, we have a bit of time if you'd like to get in a quick question.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

We've been focusing on the main Centre Block, but we have also spoken about the parliamentary precinct, specifically Wellington and Spark streets.

The building that piques my interest, and I know piques the interest of many Canadians, is the former American embassy. Last year, the Prime Minister gave that building to first nations communities.

My question is twofold. First, do we know what the value of that gift is with respect to that property? Second, do we know what the rehabilitation of that building is going to cost Canadian taxpayers when it is fully integrated into an indigenous centre, which I presume was the intent of that gift?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Brassard.

The spirit and intent of the Indigenous Peoples Space has always been that it must remain first nations, Inuit and Métis led.

We are actually playing a supporting role in this project. We're supporting the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations and our indigenous partners to develop a concept and design for the permanent facility.

In terms of the value of the gift, I will turn it over to my deputy.

[Rob Wright]

It's a difficult question to answer, I would say, but we could do some follow-up work on that.

As far as the other question on cost is concerned, the requirements have not been developed. We're still at the concept stage. As the minister indicated, we're supporting the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations and working with the national indigenous organizations and the Algonquin to develop that concept. Once that concept is developed and requirements are established, then—

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I want to be clear, then. Is it the expectation that the department will pay for all of the costs related to the rehabilitation of that building, to make it the type of space that it's presumed to be?

[Rob Wright]

That was the initial intent of that project, to work in partnership to redevelop that as a national—

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

A partnership assumes that another side is going to pay. I'm asking whether the expectation is that the Government of Canada will pay the full cost of the rehabilitation or whether there will be a partnership.

[Rob Wright]

At this point, it remains a Government of Canada facility, and the approach would be for the Government of Canada to be redeveloping that in partnership.

As for those specific answers, I wouldn't say that we're at the point of how, once that concept is in place, the facility would be managed or would work over a longer term.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mr. Wright. Thank you, Mr. Brassard.

I would like to thank Minister Anand, her deputy minister and assistant deputy minister, for being here today and answering all of our questions. I think it was quite enlightening.

I may be putting the cart before the horse, but I believe this committee will be submitting an interim report at the very least, if not a final report.

You mentioned today in your presentation that you have some information that you may be bringing to us in four weeks. I believe it will probably be an interim report establishing how we can have that input mechanism, and then whatever information you have in the coming weeks to provide will be done according to whatever that recommendation is. We look forward to seeing you in the future.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Could I make a couple of closing remarks?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Absolutely.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to thank the members for their questions.

In particular, Mr. Richards, I'd like to thank you for highlighting the decision-making and governance issues. We do need to move and make decisions regarding a number of key points on Centre Block, so if you have recommendations in your interim report regarding that, I would be very pleased to see them.

As mentioned, we will be providing preliminary cost estimates for the welcome centre and the chamber to this committee.

In closing, I would also like to thank the interpreters for their excellent work during the meeting. As you may know, PSPC does take care of the interpretation across the parliamentary precinct, and we are very fortunate to have an excellent group of interpreters with us across the Hill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Minister.

While you are all excused, I was wondering if the rest of the committee could stay behind for one minute.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Okay, thanks for being so agreeable.

In the subcommittee, we decided that the first business that the committee would undertake would be the conflict of interest review that's done every five years. I wanted to confirm that I'm giving permission to the clerk to write to the commissioner to appear before this committee, perhaps on the 24th of March.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Before that we were going to do—