Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 17th, 2021

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Yes, that's the one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Perfect.

Mr. Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It might help to get us all the same page, because I think there's a [Technical difficulty—Editor] period and that was one that I believe was drafted by his party with the House.

Then, when the CEO appeared the other day, the CEO brought forward a package of amendments that would accomplish a similar thing. I think Monsieur Therrien indicated earlier that he just felt that, legislatively, it was a more complete package.

I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that this package includes three separate amendments: one for clause 3, one for clause 4 and one for clause 5. They operate together in order to comprehensively change the legislation to enact a two-day Saturday and Sunday voting period. I think part of what happened was that the clerk's initial advice, although true, was only partially true. It does amend clause 4, but not only clause 4. It also amends clauses 3 and 5.

If it's the will of the committee, Madam Chair, I would just propose that we dispense with all of those at the same time as a combined vote, because either the committee is going to be on board with this or it won't be. Then we won't have to worry about Monsieur Therrien and the committee returning to this question in each of the subsequent clauses and perhaps forgetting and causing more confusion.

I would propose that we deal with the pack of amendments to establish the two-day voting period just moved by Monsieur Therrien as one complete package, as opposed to dealing with the three separate amendments in succession.

Perhaps we could get a decision on that.

Then I would like to provide some remarks on the substantive issue in that amendment, but perhaps we could decide the procedural question first.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Mr. Clerk, would that be possible? Is there not something else that would need to be done before that? Could we do that as a group package? It seems to make sense.

[Philippe Méla]

Madam Chair, if that would be the will of the committee, I would have to ask the committee to suspend for a bit of time so that I can look at the amendments in terms of what effect, if they were to be adopted, they would have on the other amendments that are in the package.

Just to take the second one that's in the package on clause 4, it amends line 26 on page 5, line 29 on page 5, lines 9 and 10 on page 6 and so on. It could have an effect on the other amendments that are in the package that could not be moved if these were to be adopted. I would have to check that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

We could do them one at a time.

[Philippe Méla]

If it's done this way, it would be better to do it one at a time. There are clauses to—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

For my part, Madam Chair, whatever is going to result in us dispensing with this most expeditiously is what I would favour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I think your intent was very good, but rather than making it more expeditious, it's complicating things, unfortunately. Let's speak to the content of BQ-2.1 and then dispose of it.

Go ahead, Mr. Blaikie—you wanted to speak to it—and then Ms. Vecchio.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll start by saying that I think this is one of those difficult questions that come up in the context of a pandemic election about which I think reasonable people can disagree. I have tended to favour a three-day voting period, because I found some of the arguments, particularly by disability advocates, for the Monday voting quite compelling.

In light of the testimony yesterday from the Chief Electoral Officer about the serious logistical challenges that might represent, I think what we want to do is....

Particularly when we look at the Newfoundland and Labrador example, what really fell apart there, among other things, was the ability to staff those polling locations. Staffing three days is more difficult. Finding people who are able to work both on weekends and on weekdays is more difficult. Finding locations that would have the same availability on weekends and weekdays is more difficult. The administrative burden for Elections Canada really does seem to be a lot higher.

I noticed the adamance of the CEO. I had thought, perhaps, although he had given testimony like that earlier on in our pandemic election study, that he might have changed his mind by now, as they conduct their preparations for a potential election, but I see that he hasn't.

In light of that, I am prepared to support this amendment and the others in order to establish a two-day voting period, just in the pandemic context. I think if we have too high an administrative burden for Elections Canada, we will risk their not being able to deliver in the way that I know we all want them to deliver.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Go ahead, Ms. Vecchio.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thanks very much.

I think this is absolutely where Daniel is coming from. We all know, at the end of the day, that we have different ways of getting there.

One of the things we're looking at is.... I do recall Mr. Therrien talking about transportation for the Saturday and Sunday in his areas. I know that in my area, in terms of transportation on the Saturday and Sunday, we don't actually have public transportation in many of my rural areas. It is just Monday through Friday, or here and there. It's very ad hoc when it comes to some of the transportation issues we have.

To be honest, it's the labour and it's the facilities. All of those things I look at as key barriers. We may want to have a Saturday-Sunday where it's a sporting facility or it's a church or it's a mosque. There are so many different issues that could come from this.

I think we legitimately have to have the conversation of.... We have talked three-day elections. This legislation says three-day elections, but the guy who's in charge of the elections is asking how they are going to do this. There are so many barriers to doing this.

I really think we need to get down to the principle of what it is we are looking at. Are we talking a one-day election, a two-day election or a three-day election? I think this is really what it comes down to. We'll see that all of the remaining amendments, and things like that, in the bill really go back to that principle of whether we are asking for a one-, two- or three-day election. Each day has its barriers. There are going to be reasons why some people will not want it on a Saturday or a Sunday or a Monday.

I tend to think on the Monday. Yes, maybe we shouldn't be traditionalists, but I do think on the Monday. I think that if we go to a Saturday and Sunday, we're going to still deal with the same issues that we deal with on the mail-in ballots. Are we going to open those on the Friday, or are we going to open those on the Monday? Those are things that, because we have not actually had a discussion on this.... We don't have the witnesses. We don't have anything like that, and we don't have the answers.

I'm very worried that we're just going to plow through this one.

I'll turn it back to the members, who may have some great ideas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you.

Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a couple of points.

Number one, to my colleague Madam Vecchio, yes, I agree. We don't have all the answers. I think we would have benefited from hearing a few more witnesses and having a more robust discussion about this very point.

I would point out a couple of things. If we are talking about whether it would be a one-, two- or three-day election, my preference would be either three days or one day. I recognize the fact that three days increases the complexities, strain and workload on Elections Canada, but I think it's better than a two-day election, only because there are people of faith who cannot or would not vote on either a Saturday or a Sunday.

I would also point out the obvious, a point that Mr. Blaikie has made on several occasions. If the government is truly serious about not having an election during a pandemic, even in the aftermath of a pandemic, we shouldn't worry about changing the dates of the election. We've always had election days on Monday in the past. I see no reason to change that. We could continue to have it on Monday if in fact there will not be an election called during a pandemic.

I don't think the government is in a position, because they either can't or don't want to acknowledge the fact that they are considering calling an election during the summer, but I think that's something we as a committee could probably do in terms of a recommendation in either the final report or a supplementary report, ensuring, insisting and encouraging the government to not call an election to honour their commitment during a pandemic.

The definition of when a pandemic is over is something that we might have to have a bit of a conversation on, but as far as I'm concerned, as long as there are still Canadians wishing to be vaccinated and as long as there are still Canadians being hospitalized because of COVID, that says that we are still in the midst of a pandemic and there should be no election called.

Therefore, once again, I'm just stating the obvious. If there is not going to be an election during a pandemic, I see no need to even discuss this any further than keeping the election, as it has always been, on a Monday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

This legislation wouldn't be used if there was no pandemic election, so I think the whole thing would be moot at that point anyway.

Monsieur Therrien, go ahead.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Madam Chair, that's just what I was about to say.

If we don't want elections during the pandemic, I don't know why we're working on Bill C‑19.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Agreed.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Tom.

The Chief Electoral Officer was clear. He said that if the election was held over three days, it would cause problems with polling stations and that it would be difficult to find available locations for the entire voting period. This would result in people being further away from their polling stations, which would make the situation raised by Ms. Vecchio worse.

Let me come back to the availability of staff. If we opt for a two-day period, Saturday and Sunday, people who work during the week and students could work on the weekend. We raised this idea in the past, as did the Chief Electoral Officer. He said it was a way for him to maximize recruitment.

The Chief Electoral Officer told us that he saw two possibilities, either to do it on Saturday and Sunday or on Monday. He also said that a three-day period, i.e., Saturday, Sunday and Monday, was a no‑go. I don't have as much experience as he does, but I can tell you that it's important, because he has come back to this. Indeed, he told us so when he first visited us in October. He also wrote it in his report. Following our recommendations and the drafting of our report, he came back to the committee, looked at the bill, told us that it was not adequate and that he was presenting us with an amendment. Clearly, we need to listen to the Chief Electoral Officer, and the vote should be held either on Saturday and Sunday or on Monday. His amendment proposes Saturday and Sunday.

That is why I am tabling this amendment, which spans five clauses. I think they are clauses 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. This is perhaps the most important part of Bill C‑19. I can't imagine that we not listen to the person who is responsible for managing elections in Canada and in Quebec.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Those are very important points, Mr. Therrien.

We'll go to Mr. Turnbull and then Mr. Kent.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I'll try to be as brief as possible.

I totally recognize Mr. Therrien's point of valuing the expertise that the Chief Electoral Officer brings. The testimony is important.

I think we heard from witnesses within the study that we conducted—from some of the witnesses, I shouldn't say all—who very clearly indicated the benefits of having a Monday included due to public transit, child care access and shift work, etc. Having that Monday included was going to be important.

I recognize all sides of this debate and I understand it's a complex situation. Within a pandemic, I think we want to increase the accessibility for everyone, allow the most number of options and the greatest ability to socially distance, and ensure that we balance all of the factors. I think the three-day voting period, including the Monday, really gives us the widest array of options.

I realize it creates some logistical challenges, but from my perspective, if we start early.... As Mr. Roussel mentioned before, when there's a legislative mandate in place, Elections Canada does respond to the challenges. There are either challenges on one side or challenges on the other. I think the challenge of recruiting more people to have a safer and more accessible pandemic election is better than the other option.

Thank you for the opportunity to weigh in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

Mr. Kent.

[Peter Kent, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I agree. We have to accept and take very seriously the advice of the Chief Electoral Officer. From my experience in the GTA, and certainly in Thornhill, I accept his advice that he will have serious challenges staffing and having the capacity to administer a three-day vote.

I also agree with Mrs. Vecchio's point of faith on Saturdays and Sundays—in Thornhill this is an issue—and of transportation.

As Mr. Lukiwski said, the tradition has been that election day is on a Monday. I think that with the provisions for the special ballots and for the advance polls, rather than accepting the Chief Electoral Officer's advice of Saturday and Sunday, we go with election day on the Monday, with strong advice that the advance polls and special ballot provisions be relied upon and that Elections Canada ensures it has the staff for both the advance polls and for election day on a Monday. It would also advise and advertise widely the advice that those with health concerns avail themselves of the mail-in ballot and/or the advance poll, as well as those who wish to follow tradition and vote on election day itself—the Monday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

We're very divided on this, so after we hear from Mrs. Vecchio and Mr. Therrien, it seems like some will be voting against because they want one day, some will be voting for it for two days and some will be voting against because they'd rather three days.

We have Mrs. Vecchio and then Mr. Therrien.

[Karen Vecchio, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair, for bringing that up.

I think this is where we have to say whether we are putting it in pile one, two or three. What are we looking at? Although Daniel was trying to package things together—I understand that—I think we needed this conversation to know which exit or what off-ramp we are taking. Are we doing a one-day, a two-day or a three-day election?

Perhaps I will ask the elections officials.

We have heard, of course, from the Chief Electoral Officer. Perhaps you can share with us this idea.

For me, the three days is just something we have to stay away from. Is it the belief of the Chief Electoral Officer and of Elections Canada that it's going to be much more difficult, as he stated in his own testimony that day? Is a three-day election not a great idea compared with a one-day or two-day election?

[Michel Roussel]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, it is still the opinion of the Chief Electoral Officer, and this is in fact what the evidence we've gathered so far shows, that it would be more problematic in terms of recruiting and in terms of finding voting locations over a three-day period.