Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 106 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to begin its study of parliamentary protocol related to the incident in the Speaker's gallery on Friday, September 22, 2023.

Care for the interpreters must be taken. The House administration is here, so I'm sure you know very well that the earpiece is a resource and a tool, not a gadget. If you could keep it away from the microphone, that would be great for the ears of the interpreters.

We received an email that was circulated last night with regard to someone who has some experience on this file and who would like to appear. I would ask members if we are good with inviting this individual. We can also discuss this at the end of the meeting. Are we okay with having this individual appear? Are there any concerns? We'll find a suitable spot for them and we can proceed accordingly. The clerk and I can determine that. Thank you.

We will maintain a consolidated speaking list.

Today we have with us Eric Janse, the Clerk of the House of Commons; Michel Bédard, Law Clerk and Parliamentary Council, Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel; Patrick McDonell, Sergeant-at-Arms and corporate security officer—whom I thank always for his and his team's service—Jeffrey LeBlanc, deputy clerk, procedure; Stéphan Aubé, acting deputy clerk, administration; Jeremy LeBlanc, clerk assistant and director general, International and Interparliamentary Affairs; and Nancy Anctil, chief of protocol and events management.

I understand there is one person providing opening comments. That person will have up to 10 minutes for those comments, and then we will start with questions and comments from committee members.

The floor is yours. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

[Eric Janse, Clerk of the House of Commons]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I realize there's a small army of us appearing before you today. We figured that this was the best way to ensure that we can answer all of the committee's questions.

Thank you for inviting me and my colleagues to appear today in relation to the address to Parliament by His Excellency Volodymyr Zelenskyy, which took place on September 22, 2023. Given what transpired during the event, I certainly recognize the desire of all members to ensure that such an incident never occurs again.

I am here to give the committee a description of the House administration’s role in extending invitations to guests during addresses to Parliament and in screening them for physical threats.

From time to time, the House of Commons chamber is the site for a joint address to Parliament by a distinguished visitor, usually a head of state or head of government.

As host, the Speaker takes a pre-eminent role in such events, which are organized in accordance with an established protocol.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We will have to pause because there is no translation.

Okay. We are back on track.

[Eric Janse]

Throughout the planning and execution of the address, the parliamentary protocol office ensures that information is shared among partners, coordinates logistical and protocol requirements and ensures that all arrangements follow established parliamentary practice.

A key aspect of this function involves the coordination of invitations to guests present in the chamber and in the galleries during an address. While members of the House of Commons occupy their desks, additional seats in the centre aisle of the chamber are designated for senators and certain Canadian and foreign dignitaries.

A number of seats that are not occupied by parliamentarians are distributed based on a pre-established guest list, which includes certain groups on the Table of Precedence for Canada, as well as the Prime Minister’s Office, the visiting delegation and the Speakers. The remaining seats are allotted to senators and members of the House of Commons.

The formula used for the distribution is developed by the House administration and approved by the Prime Minister’s Office and the parties for each address. In recent years, the breakdown of available seats per party and group has reflected the current standings for each in the Senate and the House of Commons.

Once the allocation of seats has been approved, each group is invited to submit their lists of intended guests to Parliament's protocol office, which coordinates the sending of the invitations. Each group and party that submits names is responsible for their own guest list. These lists are not shared with other parties or groups and, in keeping with the independence of Parliament, they are not shared with government, either.

I would like to repeat this in English, as it has been the subject of much discussion. Guest lists provided to the protocol office are not shared with other parties or groups and, in keeping with the principle of the independence of Parliament, they are not shared with the government either.

As for most events taking place on Parliament Hill, when the parliamentary protocol office receives guest lists, they ensure that the names of the guests are shared with parliamentary security partners, including the parliamentary precinct access team. These teams then verify the names against a security database and assist with the accreditation of the guests.

As with all visitors to parliamentary buildings, guests for an address to Parliament must go through a physical security screening process when they arrive on Parliament Hill. Guests to Parliament are not screened for reputational threats, which in any event would be difficult to achieve in the very short time available for the organization of such ceremonies. In addition, it is worth pointing out that almost all guests are merely spectators and play no formal role in an address to Parliament.

For the address to Parliament that took place on September 22, the names of Mr. Hunka and his son were submitted by the Speaker of the House of Commons and his office to the parliamentary protocol office. The process was the same as for previous addresses and for other groups that can submit the names of guests.

On the matter of recognition of guests, there are guidelines and processes that exist surrounding recognitions that occur during sittings of the House. These guidelines are designed to permit the orderly and appropriate recognition of dignitaries in the Speaker's gallery, without unduly interfering with the flow of business on the floor of the House.

While the present recognition guidelines apply when the House is in session, they do not extend to special ceremonies or events taking place in the House of Commons that are not official sittings of the House, such as an address to Parliament by a distinguished visitor.

It is worth noting that the practice of recognizing visitors in the gallery during an address to Parliament is a relatively new one. During recent addresses, the Prime Minister or the distinguished visitor has sometimes taken to doing this during their remarks. That is what Speaker Rota chose to do during the address in September. The House of Commons administration's advice was not sought in relation to the recognition of Mr. Hunka by Speaker Rota during his remarks.

In light of recent events, there is an understandable desire to strengthen procedures associated with the recognition of guests at these high-profile efforts, should this practice continue. Indeed, Speaker Fergus offered in October some suggestions to the House leaders for their feedback about additional steps that might be taken in relation to guests of the Speakers or the Prime Minister.

In conclusion, I would like to emphasize the House administration's desire to play a role in ensuring that a situation similar to the one that took place in the most recent address to Parliament does not happen again.

With that, I would like to thank you again for having invited me to appear before the committee. My colleagues and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for those opening comments.

We will now enter into six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Calkins.

Then we will go to Ms. Fortier and Ms. Gaudreau.

Then it will be Ms. Mathyssen.

I'll just say that in the past I've provided some leniency. We have a lot of new members at PROC now. Would you like me to continue chairing as I've always done? Would you like me to act as chair to end the time? As chair, I do have prerogative, so if witnesses do not have any time to comment, I am able to provide them time to comment.

I will continue doing that, so that's not a question, but should I continue chairing as I have chaired? I'm looking for agreement.

I see some agreement. Excellent. I will continue doing that.

Mr. Calkins, you have six minutes, through the chair.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Janse, my question is about the event. Can you confirm that the visit of President Zelenskyy to Canada, including his address to the House of Commons, was at the invitation of the government and that it was the initiative of the Prime Minister?

[Eric Janse]

Addresses to Parliament are indeed initiated by the government, but there's a motion that's actually adopted in both Houses—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Can you tell us who tabled the motion?

[Eric Janse]

I would have to look that up—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Was it a minister or a parliamentary secretary or just somebody from the House of Commons?

[Eric Janse]

It a unanimous consent motion. We can dig that up while you maybe go to your next question.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Can you confirm that the address by President Zelenskyy was actually not on an official sitting day of the House of Commons?

[Eric Janse]

Indeed. The event is held in the House of Commons chamber, but it's not considered a sitting of the House.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

The context was that the House adopted a motion to not have a sitting day in order for the government to host President Zelenskyy, using the House of Commons as the venue. Would that be a fair summation of what happened?

[Eric Janse]

I think so.

I've just received information. The motion for the address was moved by the parliamentary secretary to the government House leader and was adopted by unanimous consent.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Okay.

As we know, the Prime Minister also had another event.

I know it doesn't apply to you, but had the government decided to host President Zelenskyy over at the Chateau Laurier in the grand ballroom, none of you would have been involved in that. Is that true?

[Eric Janse]

Correct.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

The only reason that the House administration and the Speaker's office are involved is that the government made a choice to host the president, which has happened many times with all previous governments. They made the decision to use the people's House, the House of Commons, to host the event, just so we're absolutely clear.

[Eric Janse]

It's a pretty standard parliamentary event—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Yes. It's very standard, very....

Now it comes to this question. Given the fact this has been a standard thing, and it has happened in the 18 years that I've been a member of Parliament.... I've been here with two different Prime Ministers. Each Prime Minister has invited dignitaries—heads of state or heads of government—to address a joint sitting of Parliament, even though it's not an official sitting day. The mace was not on the table, correct?

[Eric Janse]

Yes.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

As you've described the process, the House of Commons finds itself in this awkward situation of being the host of the event at the request of the government, and without the capacity or tools to properly vet people. However, the former Speaker, Anthony Rota, actually said in his interview with CTV North Bay that normally lists go to the Prime Minister's Office, where they go through them with a fine-tooth comb, and then the invitation goes out from protocol, which seems to contradict the testimony you gave.

Who is more accurately describing what actually happens, Mr. Janse?

[Eric Janse]

It's a fair question, Mr. Calkins. I understand that the committee was hoping to meet with Mr. Rota, so that's certainly a question for him. Certainly, from the House administration side, the Office of Protocol does not share those lists. I don't know if either Mr. Rota or his office shared them, but we certainly didn't.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Okay, and, as you say, the Sergeant-at-Arms is present. The physical security is done. Everybody who comes in goes through that physical security and screening process. You mentioned specifically in your remarks that no one is screened for any potential reputational threat, but to me that seems to be an issue that only the government would have the capacity to do. Would anybody in the House of Commons—anybody in service to the House or an officer of the House—have the ability to even find out that information?

[Eric Janse]

Maybe I'll start and Pat can jump in afterward.

I think we would, provided we had sufficient time. I think that's the challenge, especially with this particular event. It was organized in a very, very tight deadline under some very difficult security arrangements.

Ninety-nine point nine per cent of attendees at such events are exactly that: they're attendees. They're not participants and they're not being recognized, so perhaps it raises the question of whether you have to do background checks on everybody who is just a spectator versus somebody who might play a different role.

Pat, do you have something to add?