Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If I understand correctly, there's a separate protocol for special ceremonies.

That said, I'd like to know how a former Nazi soldier was able to enter Parliament. Not only was he invited to Parliament by former Speaker Rota, but he was also invited to a separate event in Toronto by the Prime Minister.

Explain to me, Ms. Anctil, how such an individual was able to enter Parliament despite all of the security measures that are in place.

[Eric Janse]

I think that's a question for Mr. McDonell.

The names of all of the guests go through the office of the Sergent-at-Arms and corporate security. Some verifications are made, mainly against databases. Just because someone has a disreputable past doesn't mean they will appear on a list of people who can't enter Parliament. The individual in question has been a Canadian citizen since the 1950s, after all. Maybe that's why he didn't appear on any list.

I don't know if I've properly explained the situation.

[Patrick McDonell]

I think so.

I think the gentleman wasn't a physical security risk but a reputational risk. The only way to avoid a reputational risk here is to do a verification of their background.

For us, that's the only way to verify such an individual's reputational risk.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I understand all that, but I still don't quite get how it could have happened. I'm no expert on the matter, but I do know that a former Nazi soldier was present at the same time as the President of Ukraine. We should be able to find some basic information, at least.

Not only was this individual invited on Mr. Rota's initiative, but the Prime Minister was aware as well, because he invited this same individual to an event in Toronto. Explain to me how this could have happened. The Prime Minister knew. Mr. Rota trusted him. We need to acknowledge how serious this is.

I would like a more detailed explanation.

[Patrick McDonell]

In my opinion, if you had 500 guests, you'd have to do the background on 500 guests. We didn't know that this gentleman was being recognized by the Speaker. We do the physical security. We do a database check to see if they're a risk to our parliamentarians or to Parliament itself. The reputational check on 500 people would take weeks, if ever we were mandated to do it.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

We have so much to learn from what happened and that's what we plan to do over the next meetings. A special ceremony is no reason to follow a different procedure, especially when the presence of guests is brought to the attention of the House.

Ms. Anctil, I'd like to know what kind of analysis or due diligence was done. I suppose that at some point, you start seeing signals or red flags. What kinds of things were discussed to come to the conclusion that it was enough, that this person wasn't really on the list and that they would pass the security check?

We've already requested information on what happened, but the answers we received were unsatisfactory. Could you tell us more about the discussions that took place on the subject of Mr. Hunka?

[Nancy Anctil]

Actually, he was on the list. He got his invitation, just like the other guests. He was on the master list that we sent to security.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay.

Let's move on to the next part. There were some delays. Some opposition parties called for the Speaker's resignation, and eventually he did resign. What came up in the discussions?

The Prime Minister acknowledged this grave error, but then we learned that he himself had been aware. What do we do in these circumstances?

[Nancy Anctil]

I am not privy to that part of the process at the Prime Minister's Office. So I don't know what they knew or didn't know, nor do I know how these people were invited. It's really a completely separate process. Our guest list and that of the Prime Minister are two completely different things. Consequently, I can't really comment on what the Prime Minister knew or didn't know or at what point he might've known it.

That said, I can tell you that we received Mr. Hunka's name, which came from Mr. Rota's office. The request was processed like all the others from various groups authorized to invite guests to an address to Parliament.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Without pointing fingers at anyone, what I understand is that, in terms of procedure, when you have 48 hours to do background checks on over 500 guests, that's not going to work. So essentially, you failed.

[Nancy Anctil]

I wouldn't say that. We didn't know that attention would be drawn to this person's presence. If his presence in the gallery hadn't been recognized, I don't know that anyone would have found out. We don't know the history of the 500 people who were invited.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay, I understand.

I'd also like to know what happened afterwards. I was shocked by the whole process that led up to the resignation of Mr. Rota. I'd like to request that all of the communications until the resignation of Mr. Rota, which included several interventions, be sent to the committee. The committee's already requested all of the communications on the subject of Mr. Hunka leading up to the day in question, but I think we should also have all of the communications right up until the resignation of Mr. Rota. I'd like to make that request, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen, go ahead for six minutes, through the chair.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses. It's quite a lineup we have here.

I am very grateful that you've taken time out of your busy schedules to be with us today. You are the central core of what we know in terms of security and the goings-on of the House.

I just want to go to some points that other members didn't necessarily get to for clarification.

Mr. McDonell, you talked about watch-lists that you have. Can you define what those are and explain them and what they are?

[Patrick McDonell]

Yes. The parliamentary access group receives the list and they enter names, one at a time, into a database. It's quite simple. If a red light appears, there is a doubt, and further investigation is required. If the light is green, access is granted. There are different ways to find oneself on that database.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

What would be reasons for that red light?

[Patrick McDonell]

I don't want to get into too much detail.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Just say as much as you can.

[Patrick McDonell]

A simple one would be having previously created a disturbance here. That would be one way.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay. Would that be only here or with other police forces or other levels of jurisdiction?

[Patrick McDonell]

It would involve a threat to parliamentarians and a threat to Parliament itself, if that has come to our attention—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It would be specifically Parliament.

[Patrick McDonell]

It would be Parliament and parliamentarians here and in the community.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

That's a combination of what we experience at the local level through the RCMP and that sort of thing as well.

[Patrick McDonell]

We exchange information with the RCMP—