Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 20th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cooper.

The speaking order to begin debate on Mr. Cooper's motion is as follows. Should you want your name added to the list, simply let me know. I have Mr. Gerretsen, Ms. Mathyssen and Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Gerretsen, the floor is yours.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

First, to our witnesses, I want to thank you for being here today. I can only imagine the frustration of repeating the same thing over and over and over, only to be met by a complete stonewall from my four Conservative colleagues, who are just unwilling to accept or listen to what the witnesses have been telling us today repeatedly. There is so much desire from my Conservative colleagues to make this as hyperpartisan as possible. They're not interested in actually dealing with the issue of foreign interference, despite the fact that it is an extremely serious issue that needs to be dealt with seriously. They're interested in political gain.

I'll tell you what's going on here.

Mr. Cooper wants us to vote against this so that he can walk out and film a video and put it out there on social media. Mr. Genuis will help him do that. I'm sure they'll film videos of each other so that they can then go and try to fundraise off this by saying “cover-up” and all this stuff.

Meanwhile, if the average layperson had just walked into this room, Mr. Chair, if they didn't know where they were going but just happened to sit in the back of this room and listen to the exchanges that are going on here today, completely unbiased to any of this and completely uninformed, they would probably leave here completely bewildered by the fact that the Conservatives are just unwilling to listen to a single word the witnesses they called before the committee have offered.

Madame Drouin made an extremely good observation early on in the second half of this discussion today. She talked about how this is not partisan; this is about Canadian democracy. This is about upholding the institutions we have.

Mr. Cooper just wants to take more and more potshots at the Prime Minister over this because he sees political opportunity coming out of it.

Mr. Cooper, just moments ago, when talking about this, talked about a private member's bill—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Oh, am I getting under your skin a bit there, Garnett?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Colleagues, we had a really good 95 minutes or so, or whatever it was—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I know. I sat through it all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Guys, I have a point of order from Mr. Genuis. I'm going to give him the floor to speak to that point of order. Following that, I'll go back to Mr. Gerretsen.

Colleagues, I hope we can be productive in the next number of minutes.

Mr. Genuis, the floor is yours.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

At the risk of violating Napoleon's most famous advice, I will just point out that my colleague is far afield of the topic of the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis, for your observation.

Mr. Gerretsen, go ahead.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Cooper, in his comments, which I found to be wildly ironic, just moments ago started to talk about a private member's bill introduced by Mr. Ruff. Mr. Ruff is a Conservative colleague of ours who sits in the House of Commons and, actually, is only one of a small handful of parliamentarians who sit on the NSICOP committee. Mr. Ruff is Mr. Cooper, Mr. Genius, Mr. Duncan and Mr. Berthold's connection to security—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. I just want to make sure—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Madame Gill, one moment.

Mr. Gerretsen, we have a point of order.

Ms. Gill, go ahead.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I just joined the committee to replace Ms. Gaudreau. I want to make sure, Mr. Chair, that you saw that I raised my hand before Mr. Genuis raised a point of order. I would also like to speak after Mr. Gerretsen. Of course, as a matter of courtesy, I'll let him finish. I just wanted to make sure that you saw that I wanted to speak briefly, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Okay. Thank you for your comments. I'll add your name to the list.

Mr. Gerretsen, the floor remains yours.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I was saying—and I'm speaking directly to the comments of the Conservative member who introduced this motion and referenced his private member's bill—Mr. Ruff is one of only a small handful of parliamentarians who sit on NSICOP, and for those who might just randomly be tuning into this, NSICOP is the secret committee of parliamentarians that reviews sensitive information and has all the security clearances to do that. Mr. Ruff does not support the narrative of these Conservative colleagues sitting here, despite the fact that Mr. Cooper invoked his name moments ago. As a matter of fact, this is what Mr. Ruff said just a few days ago, on June 10. He said, “Every single parliamentarian, in fact, I would encourage every single Canadian, read this report from start to finish...the fact is, this is an issue that needs to be resolved”—referring to foreign interference, and this is the important part, Mr. Chair—“and you want to tone down the partisanship and up our game on national security intelligence. We all need to do a better job of educating ourselves on what the threats are, what the vulnerabilities are and how to deal with it going forward.” Mr. Ruff also said, “To build on what Mr. McGuinty said—and I'm 100% in agreement.”

I notice my Conservative colleagues are chatting with each other, which doesn't surprise me, because that's what they did during the time that the witnesses were speaking, because they have no interest in hearing this, but at least to have it on the record, I just want to reiterate this point. He said, “and I'm 100% in agreement. The Prime Minister is not redacting anything. It's the process that we go through that allows those redactions to occur to protect national security, national defence and mainly international relationships....” Mr. Ruff, who is on NSICOP, who is a Conservative member of Parliament, is chastising these four individuals for the way they're acting today.

Mr. Chair, I move that we adjourn the debate.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Unfortunately—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Is this member trying to shut down debate when others haven't been able to reply, because he doesn't want to have to work this summer? Is that what's happening, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Genuis, we have a motion that has been put forward, and we have—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Did Mr. Gerretsen just say, “Boo hoo, get over it,” again?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Guys, do I have to suspend, or can I just get to the order of business here?

I'm not tending to the point of order, because we have had a motion to adjourn. You know very well that is what we call a dilatory motion. We're going to go to a vote.

Mr. Clerk, I'm going to ask you to call the vote on whether to adjourn debate on the motion that was moved what seems like ages ago now by Mr. Cooper.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

Okay, colleagues, you've heard the results. We have adjourned debate on the motion.

We are now going to resume the line of questioning that we were engaged in prior to the moving of Mr. Cooper's motion.

Mr. Gerretsen, the floor is yours for five minutes, should you want your time.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you, Mr. Gerretsen.

Ms. Gill, there were 30 seconds left in Ms. Gaudreau's previous turn. If you want, I can add that time to your two and a half minutes, giving you a total of three minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you for your offer, Mr. Chair. I would just like to ask one question.

I want to apologize to the witnesses for the fact that we had to discuss committee business earlier. This business could have been discussed at another time.

My question is for Ms. Xavier and it concerns the victims of the APT31 group.

Last week, we were told that that neither CSE, nor CSIS nor the RCMP contacted members of Parliament following the incidents or disclosures made to the media. We were told that only the FBI briefed members of Parliament. Of course, this is quite a statement. When we hear that, we think that something isn't right.

I want to know whether you consider this unusual.

Is this lack of communication with members of Parliament part of your protocols, or does it conflict with them?

I would like you to clarify these two points.

[Caroline Xavier]

It's a shame that parliamentarians weren't contacted. When the information was provided to the House of Commons in 2021, we certainly expected that the necessary steps would be taken to inform the members of Parliament.

That said, we're taking steps to work with our colleagues at CSIS and the House of Commons to improve the processes. As I said, we've already had a number of conversations with our colleagues to ensure that the members of Parliament receive better service.

I would like to add—