Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 29th, 2022

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

We need to look a little further ahead. Certainly, we're finding solutions. However, we can see that many things are already happening in this area. This is part of the discussion on electronic voting.

I have more questions.

Obviously, there wasn't really a consultation. You said that you can't really determine, although you could guess, whether this would affect voter turnout. How did you decide that it was necessary to take further steps so that indigenous voters could see, for example, the names of candidates in their own languages?

Did you receive any complaints or comments from all the first nations? Where is this request coming from?

We're hearing a great deal about the 1% threshold, but perhaps other requests don't relate to that threshold.

Is there a widespread call for this? Do people know that this possibility exists?

I'm asking because there are people from indigenous communities in my constituency. I know that some of them mustn't even be aware that this possibility exists.

I'm asking a very general question, again.

[Stéphane Perrault]

I think, Madam Chair, that we've tried to improve the services provided to Canadians and to take into account Canadians in special situations.

In the case of indigenous people, the reconciliation process, of course, gives us a different perspective. A long time ago, we started to provide information in indigenous languages. We also have different programs that help indigenous voters at the polls. This was our first time using a facsimile. Of course, you and I both know that Bill C‑309 last spring clearly showed needs in this area. It was welcomed by all the committee members. I wanted to conduct the experiment in Nunavut. I believe that, at that time, it was the easiest place to adapt and test a facsimile.

That's how we reached this point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Do you have another brief question, Ms. Gill?

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Yes, Madam Chair. I had one, but I forgot it. There was a connection, of course, but I'll come back to it later.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Idlout, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐃ, ᓯᕗᕐᓕᕐᒥ ᑲᑎᒪᔨᕋᓛᖑᔪᓯᒍᑦ ᐊᑦᓯᐊᓗᒃ ᖁᔭᓕᒍᒪᕙᑦᓯ ᑐᑭᓯᐅᒪᑎᑕᐅᓯᒪᒐᒪ ᐅᕙᓂ ᐃᓪᓗᕈᓯᕐᒦᖃᑦᑕᖏᒃᑲ-ᓗᐊᕋᑦᓯ, ᑭᓯᐊᓂ ᐃᓄᑦᑑᕈᓐᓇᕐᓂᐊᕋᒪ ᑐᓵᔨᖃᕈᓐᓇᕐᓂᐊᕋᒪ ᐅᕗᖓ ᓅᓯᒪᒐᑦᓯ ᐊᑦᓱᐊᓗᒃ ᖁᔭᒋᕙᑦᓯ ᑕᒡᕙᓂ ᐅᖃᕈᓐᓇᖅᑎᑕᐅᓪᓗᖓᓗ ᑕᐃᓐᓇ ᕋᐃᑦᓱᓪ ᑲᑎᒪᔨᐅᖃᑦᑕᖅᑑᒐᓗᐊᖅ ᖁᔭᓕᒻᒥᔾᓗᒍ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᓕᕆᓂᐅᑉ ᒥᑦᓵᓄᑦ ᐊᑦᓱᕈᑎᖃᕐᓂᐊᑎᓪᓗᑕ ᐊᑦᓱᐊᓗᒃ ᖁᔭᓕᕗᖓ ᑕᒡᕙᓃᒃᑲᑦᓯ, ᓯᕗᓪᓕᐅᑎᒍᒪᑐᐃᓐᓇᓵᖅᑕᕋ, ᑖᒃᑯᓄᖓ ᐊᐱᕆᓂᐊᓕᕋᒪ ᐃᒪᓐᓇ, ᐋᒻ, ᖃᐅᔨᒪᔪᐃᓐᓇᐅᔪᒍᑦ ᓂᕈᐊᕐᓂᖅ ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅᑎᒻᒪᕆᐅᒻᒪᑦ, ᐊᒻ, ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐱᔪᓐᓇᐅ-ᑎᒻᒪᕆᐅᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᑲᓇᑕᒥ ᐱᖁᔭᕐᔪᐊᖅᑕᖃᓕᕐᒪᑦ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖏᓐᓂᒃ ᐱᖁᔭᕐᔪᐊᖅ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐅᖃᖅᓯᒪᓪᓗᓂ ᑲᓇᑕᒥ ᑎᒥᐅᔪᑦ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᖅᓴᖃᕐᒪᑕ ᓴᖅᑭᔮᖅᑎᑦᓯᖁᔨᓂᕐᒥᒃ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᑦ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖏᓐᓂ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑐᐃᓗᑎᒃ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᖏᓐᓂᒃ ᐅᑎᖅᑎᖁᔨᓂᖅ ᐱᕚᓪᓕᖁᔨᓂᖅ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐱᑕᖃᐃᓐᓇᖁᔨᓂᕐᒥᒃ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᓴᓐᖏᓕᖅᑎᑦᓯᒃᑲᓐᓂᓂᕐᒥᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᒐᕙᒪᑐᖃᖅᑯᑦ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑐᐃᒋᐊᖃᕐᒪᑕ ᑕᒪᒃᑯᓂᖓ ᑎᒥᐅᔪᓂᒃ ᑖᓐᓇ ᒪᓕᒐᕐᔪᐊᒥᒃ ᑎᑎᕋᖅᓯᒪᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᐊᐱᕆᕗᖓ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᓂᕈᐊᖅᑐᓕᕆᔨᒃᑯᓯᒍᑦ ᐊᑭᓕᕐᓂᐊᕐᓂᕋᐃᒻᒪᖔᑦᓯ ᑖᑦᓱᒥᖓ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᑳᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᒪᓕᒐᕐᔪᐊᓂᒃ ᐊᑐᕐᓂᐊᕐᓂᖓᓐᓂᒃ ᑐᑭᓯᒍᒪᕗᖓ ᑖᒃᑯᓄᖓ ᐃᖅᑲᓇᐃᔭᖅᑎᖏᓐᓄᑦ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank you for involving me in dealing with very important issues, and I'm very happy that I am involved.

We have good interpreters, and you have given me opportunities to sit on other meetings, which has been wonderful for me. We need to talk about our culture and our way of doing things. Thank you.

I have a question. We all know that elections are a human right in Canada. There is a Constitution, and indigenous languages are entrenched well there.

We have a lot of things to do in Canada. We need to deal with indigenous languages and deal with them importantly and properly, and we want to continue to use our languages and strengthen them. The Government of Canada needs to help us to strengthen the bodies of Inuit organizations to entrench and enrich languages.

Are you open to dealing with the rights of indigenous people? I'd like to understand what you think.

[English]

[Stéphane Perrault]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Certainly, I'm open and willing. I believe, as I said at the outset, that the presence of indigenous languages at the polls is an important element of making sure that the voting experience is reflective of indigenous people's identity. To me, that is a significant step in the process of reconciliation.

I'm not saying that everything can happen immediately. We need to work on this, but as I said, I'm committed, Madam Chair, to working on this and to increasing the presence of indigenous languages where I can. We'll learn from that and I'll come back to this committee. We'll see what progress we've made and where we can take it from there.

Absolutely, you have my commitment to that, Madam Chair.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik.

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ, ᐊᒻᒪᑦᑕᐅᖅ ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᑉᐸᑦᓯ, ᑕᐃᑲᓂ ᐃᖃᓗᓐᓂ ᓂᕈᐊᓚᐅᕐᒥᒐᒪ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕆᓚᐅᖅᑕᑎᑦ ᐃᓄᑦᑎᑑᓕᖓᔪᑦ ᑎᑎᕋᖅᑕᐅᓯᒪᔪᑦ ᑕᑯᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᖁᕕᐊᓇᓚᐅᕐᒪᑦ ᖁᕕᐊᑦᑎᒋᓚᐅᕋᒪ ᐃᓐᓇᖁᑎᒃᑲ ᖁᕕᐊᓐᓇᔭ-ᓚᐅᖅᑐᐃᑦ ᖃᐅᔨᒪᓇᓐᖏᑦᑐᖅ ᖁᕕᐊᓐᓂᖅᓴᐅᒐᔭᖅᑐᑦ ᐊᒥᓲᒻᒪᑕ ᖃᓪᓗᓈᑎᑐᑦ ᐅᖃᓕᒫᕈᓐᓇᖏᑦᑐᑦ, ᐋ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᐃᓱᒪᒋᓪᓗᒍ, ᐋ, ᐊᒥᓲᓚᐅᖅᑐᑦ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᑦ ᐊᓯᖏᓐᓄᑦ ᓄᓇᓕᓐᓄᑦ ᐊᐅᓪᓚᕆᐊᖃᖅᑐᑦ ᐋᓐᓂᐊᕐᕕᓕ-ᐊᖅᑐᑦ, ᐋ, ᑖᓐᓇ ᓄᓇᕗᑦ, ᐋᒻ, ᐃᓛ ᓂᕈᐊᕐᓂᐊᓚᐅᖅᑐᖅ, ᐋ, ᓂᕈᐊᕐᔪᐊᕐᓂᐅᓚᐅᖅᑐᖅ, ᐋᒻ, ᐋᕐᓂᐊᕐᕕᓕ-ᐊᖅᑐᓄᑦ ᐊᑦᑐᐊᓂᖃᓚᐅᕐᒪᑦ ᓲᕐᓗ ᑖᓐᓇ ᓄᓇᕗᑦ ᐊᑕᐅᓯᖅᑐᐊᖑᑎᕐᓗᒎᒐᓗᐊᖅ ᐃᑦᓯᕙᐅᑕᖅ, ᐋᒻ, ᐃᖃᓗᓐᓂ ᓂᕈᐊᕆᐊᖅᑐᖅᑐᖃᖅᑎᓪᓗᒎᒐᓗᐊᖅ ᐋᕐᓂᐊᕐᕕᓕᐊᖅᓯᒪᔫᒐᓗᐊᑦ ᐊᓂᖁᔭᐅᖃᑦᑕᓚᐅᖅᑐᑦ ᓂᕈᐊᕈᓐᓇᖅᑎᑕᐅ-ᖏᑦᖢᑎᒃ ᑐᓴᐅᒪᑎᑕᐅᓚᐅᖅᑐᒍᑦ ᐊᒥᓱᑦ ᓂᕈᐊᕆᐊᖅᑐᖅᑑᒐᓗᐊᑦ ᐋᒡᒑᖅᑕᐅᔪᑦ ᐃᖅᑲᓇᐃᔭᖅᑎᓄᑦ ᓂᕈᐊᖅᑐ-ᓕᕆᔨᒃᑯᓐᓂᒃ ᐅᖃᐅᔾᔭᐅᓪᓗᑎᒃ ᓲᖃᐃᒻᒪᒎᖅ ᓄᓇᒋᔭᒥᓐᓃᖏᑦᖢᑎᒃ ᓂᕈᐊᕆᐊᖅᑐᕐᓂᕐᒪᑕ ᑖᓐᓇ ᖃᓄᑭᐊᑎᖅ ᐋ ᐅᓂᒃᑲᐅᑎᔪᓐᓇᐱᐅᖅᑲᐃ ᐋ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᑦ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑐᖅᑕᐅᒃᑲᓐᓂᕈᓐᓇᕋᔭᕐᒪᖔᑦᑕ ᐋ ᖃᓪᓗᓈᑎᑑᕈᓐ-ᓇᓐᖏᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐃᓄᑦᑎᑐᑦ ᐅᖃᓕᒫᕈᓐᓇᑐᐃᓐᓇᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐃᖅᓇᐃᔭᖅᑏᑦ ᐃᓄᑦᑎᑑᕈᓐᓇᖏᑉᐸᑕ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐋ ᓴᓂᕐᕙᖁᔭᐅᓐᖏᑦᖢᑎᑦ ᓂᕈᐊᕈᒪᑉᐸᑕ ᓂᕈᐊᕆᐊᖃᕋᓗᐊᕐᒪᑕ ᐊᒥᓲᓐᖏᓗᐊᕋᓂᕐᖕᒪᑕ ᓂᕈᐊᕆᐊᖅᑐᖅᐸᑦᑐᑦ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᑦ ᖃᓄᖅ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑐᖅᑕᐅᒃᑲᓐᓂᕈᓐᓇᕋᔭᖅᐸᑕᒃᑭᐊᖅ ᓂᕈᐊᕐᕕᔾᔪᐊᕐᓇᐅᓕᕐᒥᑉᐸᑦ, ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

I'd also like to thank you for involving Inuit in voting. It was very impressive what they did in the community in Nunavut.

There are many people who do not speak English. We speak Inuktitut. There are many people in Nunavut who have to travel south for their treatment or for hospitalization. English does not work. We need Inuktitut. There are so many people who go south to get their treatments, yet they have to use English.

There are many people who went to Iqaluit to vote but were unable to. They were told to get out because they didn't have proper policies and procedures on elections and on languages. It's no wonder. When they're not in their community and they have to travel, they need to vote, too, but it's not allowed.

How can you, as the Government of Canada, help us with the proper procedures, especially for people who do not speak English? Voting and ballots are very important to Canada and to us. Our rights should not be ignored, especially when there's a national election.

Thank you.

[English]

[Stéphane Perrault]

If you will allow me, our service model is currently based on Canadians serving their fellow Canadians in their community. Normally, at the local level in indigenous communities, we are able to find people who speak the language—that's where they come from.

I understand, however, that in Nunavut, a lot of travel takes place. People are going to Iqaluit, where there is more of a mixed linguistic community. We are generally able to offer language services in the language of the people, but it's not always as easy as when you vote locally.

I understand that when you vote in Iqaluit, you have to vote by special ballot, which is a complex process. You're voting away from your polling division. The list is not the list for other polling divisions; therefore, you have to use the special ballot. It is a more complicated ballot.

We have a service called CanTalk, which offers, for a special ballot at the office of the returning officer, translation in 24 indigenous languages. I'm eager to hear if there are problems with that service in Iqaluit and whether we can improve it.

I recognize that voting outside of the polling division and outside of your community involves a more complex process, which is the special ballot.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Would you like one more question, Ms. Idlout?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐋ, ᐃᓛᒃ, ᐊᒥᓲᒻᒪᑕ ᓄᓇᕗᒻᒥᐅᑦ ᐃᓄᑦᑐᑐᐊᖅ ᐅᖃᓪᓚᓲᑦ ᐱᓗᐊᖅᓱᒋᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᖁᑏᑦ ᐋ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᓐᓇᐃᑦ ᓂᕈᐊᕐᓂᐊᕌᒐᒥᒃ ᐊᒥᓲᓐᖏᓗᐊᖃᑦᑕᕐᒪᑕ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑎᑎᕋᖅᑕᐅᓯᒪᔪᑦ ᐋ, ᐃᓄᑦᑎᑐᑦ. ᓂᕈᐊᖅᑐᓕᕆᔪᒃᑭᓱᒍᖅᑲᐃ ᐃᓱᒪᖅᓴᖅᓯᐅᕋᔭᖅᐱᓰᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑕᐅᒍᓐᓇᖁᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᐃᓐᓇᐃᑦ ᓂᕈᐊᕐᓇᕐᓂᐊᓕᕌᖓᒥᒃ ᐋ ᓲᕐᓗ ᖃᐃ ᑐᓵᔨᖃᖅᑎᑕᐅᒻᒪᕆᓪᓗᑎᒃ ᓂᕈᐊᕐᓇᐅᓂᐊᓕᖅᑎᓪᓗᒍ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑐᓵᔩᑦ ᐃᑲᔪᖅᑐᐃᔪᓐᓇᕐᓗᑎᒃ ᑕᐃᑲᓂ ᓂᕈᐊᕐ-ᕕᒻᒥᒃ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Many Inuit in Nunavut speak only Inuktitut. When elders are ready to vote.... They're half of the population now. They're not enough.

Can you consider, as a government, helping Inuit elders by giving them interpreters? They need access to their language, especially during elections. Elders are important.

[English]

[Stéphane Perrault]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I certainly will look more deeply into this.

Obviously I'm not in Nunavut at the scene there, but I will be there this summer to discuss this very issue. I intend to travel there with other chief electoral officers of Canada at the provincial level.

My understanding is that there is generally service in Inuktitut at the polls but that this is not equally true in Iqaluit. I understand that. We need to see how we can improve the services there. If it is your understanding that it's mostly an Iqaluit issue, then I'd like to hear that from you.

My apologies; that was through you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Perrault.

I think that this is a moment of reflection as well. When Ms. Idlout speaks, we get to understand her in English and in French, yet when we are communicating, she does not have that same ability to hear it in her language. I just want to put on the record that I am noticing this. I know we are taking steps as a country and as a government, but obviously we have a lot further to go.

Your insights are very welcome here today. Thank you for the information you always share. I just wanted to put that on the record, because I've not experienced this yet. Thank you for broadening my horizons, as well.

Mr. Scheer, we are starting with you for five minutes, followed by Ms. Sahota. Then it will be Madam Gill for 2.5 minutes, Ms. Idlout for 2.5 minutes, Mr. Schmale for five minutes and Ms. Romanado for five minutes.

Mr. Scheer, I will turn the floor over to you.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a couple of clarification questions.

The commissioner described the pilot project. I think you referred to it as putting up posters in polling locations using what I believe you termed “a facsimile” of the ballot, with indigenous languages and how that would translate into the ballot.

One of the practical concerns or issues you flagged about using these types of languages on the ballot was related to who would validate the translation. I believe that's how you put it.

I am just wondering if you could explain the process to validate the translation for those facsimile posters. Whose version do you take, or on what basis do you have confidence that this is the proper translation—the proper transcription, I guess, for lack of a better word?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Thank you. Madam Chair. I think that's a very important question.

In the last election, when we did this, it was translated.... Normally we work with the translation bureau. They offer many indigenous languages, but not all, and we had to do the translation, basically, over a 24-hour cycle in order to get the ballots produced, printed and distributed.

The tight time frame does not allow validation, at this point in time, and this is something we'd have to discuss with political parties. These names were not validated. They are not official ballots either, so there is a benefit to that. It's unfortunate if there are errors, and we'll try, of course, to avoid that.

However, until we learn more about our ability to translate quickly and turn that around, I believe it is risky to introduce additional languages on an official ballot. This was a tool for assistance, but there was no time in the process for validation, either by candidates or by parties.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Scheer.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I appreciate that. I guess the point is that there's a different level...partially because the ballot requirements aren't laid out in statute, but also because the official ballot would have to be 100% certain. You would have to have an extremely high level of confidence that there is accuracy on the ballot itself, whereas with informational posters, you have a bit of leeway there. It's a bit easier to amend. If you catch a mistake, you can likely amend it a lot more easily than reprinting tens of thousands of ballots.

[Stéphane Perrault]

Moreover, Madam Chair, if we are late—this time around, we were able to arrive just in time for advance polls—with a poster, it's unfortunate. It's very unfortunate, but it does not compromise the vote itself. If we have to do a more complex ballot, we have to be sure that we can produce it in time for the advance polls. There is no way around it. We have to be certain about that.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

This was the first election in which Elections Canada used this pilot project.

[Stéphane Perrault]

For a facsimile of the ballot, yes, it was the first time we've done this.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Has Elections Canada had time to do any kind of analysis of how the project worked, and have you drawn any conclusions from that, or is it too soon after the last election to accurately summarize how it went?

[Stéphane Perrault]

It was a fairly simple project last time around, because we were familiar with the translation into Inuktitut and we were able to do it in time. That was the biggest aspect of the test.

I think there is much more to learn as we try different languages and we see whether we have some space for validation, before an election, for example, of the party names, what names the parties want to see on the ballot and how they want to see their names reflected.

It was the beginning of an experiment, but there is so much more that we need to learn in this area.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair. That's all I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Scheer.

We will now move to Ms. Sahota for five minutes.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I also want to say that it was really nice to hear Ms. Idlout being able to speak in her own language here today. That was an important part of the work we did at this committee many years ago, but there is more to do, obviously, because we are not able to have it translated back to her in her language.

That being said, I think it's important—just as the Chief Electoral Officer has said—for us to make inroads and take steps, because it's not just about voter turnout, although I do think in certain areas, though perhaps not in all areas, it will have an impact. It's also about including indigenous people and making them feel included in the process. It's about reconciliation, and it's about promoting the languages.

I want to know a little more about the phone service that's being provided in 24 languages currently. Does the Chief Electoral Officer know how much that phone service is utilized? Are there languages other than those 24 indigenous languages in which the phone service is provided?

I have found that perhaps the service is there, but in terms of when it is utilized in the ridings, the service isn't as accessible as we may think it is.