Evidence of meeting #135 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was orders.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Samantha Reusch  Executive Director, Apathy is Boring
Daniel Mulroy  Lawyer, As an Individual
Peter Deboran  Principal (retired), Member of the Steering Committee, Indo-Caribbean Educators Network

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Actually, that's where I was going with this. You mentioned “all recognized parties” when you had debate on this motion. Currently, a recognized party has 12 members. We are moving to 343 after the next election. Do you think that also needs to be reflected?

We also had situations in which there were more people sitting as independents. Therefore, if we go with only recognized parties or a consensus versus unanimous consent—which I can understand—that also limits the ability of smaller parties, then, to have an opportunity to weigh in on that. What are your thoughts on that?

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

I think that, if you're a very small group, it would be hard to have a significant impact on this debate. We could go for, say, unanimous consent. The reason for not doing that is that, once there is one member who can hold things up, they then have a basis for log-rolling. Is that really what you want?

That's why I mentioned the liberum veto. If you want to just go and read about the liberum veto online, it was how the Polish parliament was run in the 17th and 18th centuries, and it was not a very effective way of running a government—I'll just say that.

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Just before we end, are there any other aspects of this motion that you think we should strengthen to ensure the intent of it is fully realized?

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON

Of course, I think it's perfect the way it's written. However, maybe something to think about is that, if you're looking for things to ask witnesses about, you might want to inquire about the way in which opposition day motions and private members' motions are being dealt with, which are (v) and (vi), I think, in the list. They're being treated a little differently from the closure and time allocation items that are simply being put off the table. The clerks might have something interesting to say about that.

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Colleagues, I feel like I've returned to second-year political philosophy class today. It was a very fruitful discussion.

I went around the table briefly. There seems to be agreement that we have another meeting on M-109 to invite the House administration and potentially others. However, what I did hear from colleagues is that there is a desire to make sure that Bill C-65 is tended to before we call another meeting on M-109.

I'm looking around. I feel as though head nods are telling me that there's an implied majority here. If colleagues want to vote, we can do that. There's a majority that says yes. Is that clear to everybody?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

I'll work with the clerk to make sure that we find time in the calendar. Please make sure that you submit witnesses beyond House administration for that one meeting.

Other than that, Mr. Reid, thank you very much for availing yourself to the committee and for your thoughtful insights today.

Colleagues, we have a couple of witnesses for our next round online. We're going to have to briefly suspend in order to transition over. We'll be back in a few minutes for our next hour on Bill C-65.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

What is the deadline for our clerk for witnesses for motion M‑109?

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

That's a good question. I'd say it's probably a few weeks away, but we can discuss it after the meeting.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

That's fine.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

We will suspend the meeting briefly.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Colleagues, welcome back.

I see that we have Mr. Barlow and Ms. Barron here, so welcome to PROC, colleagues.

We are continuing our study on Bill C-65, an act to amend the Canada Elections Act.

The witnesses appearing today are those we had slated to appear last week, but the affairs of the committee made it such that we weren't able to hear from them at that point, and we're going to try that again.

I'd like to welcome, from Apathy is Boring, Samantha Reusch, the executive director. Appearing as an individual, we have Daniel Mulroy, lawyer, who is appearing by video conference. From the Indo-Caribbean Educators Network, we have Peter Deboran, retired principal and member of the steering committee, who is also appearing by video conference.

Each witness will have upwards of five minutes. We'll begin with Ms. Reusch, followed by Mr. Mulroy and Mr. Deboran, to give open statements. We will then go into lines of questioning from members of each political party.

With that, Ms. Reusch, I turn the floor over to you.

Samantha Reusch Executive Director, Apathy is Boring

Thank you.

Good afternoon, members of the committee.

My name is Sam Reusch. I am the executive director of Apathy is Boring. Founded in 2004, we're the largest national non-partisan organization that engages young Canadians aged 18 to 34 in our democracy.

We're proud to work with youth from all sides of the political spectrum. It's not about who they vote for but rather that they participate in the democratic process and have their voices heard on the issues that matter most to them, including the economy, housing, equality and affordability.

I'm here today to express support for several amendments included in Bill C-65, while also providing a real-world perspective on how to improve this bill to increase voter turnout and trust in our institutions amongst youth.

First, I want to address the proposed amendments related to on-campus voting. We know from our work across the country that, when young people are given accessible and convenient ways to participate in Canada's democratic process, they're more likely to vote. On-campus polling stations also provide meaningful opportunities for student organizations to engage young electors on campus. Importantly, this sends a powerful message to Canadian youth that their vote matters, something that is essential to reducing motivational barriers to participation.

Second, Apathy is Boring also strongly supports the proposed amendments targeting election interference. Further, we support the latest recommendations by the Chief Electoral Officer that call for expanding the current foreign interference measures to apply at all times.

Deceptive campaigns that manipulate and distort public opinion harm Canada's democracy and must be banned. When hidden resources are used to mislead, divide and push agendas without Canadians' knowledge, Canada's democratic process is undermined and our collective trust in institutions is put at risk. This is a risk that we cannot afford.

Importantly, this is not an issue of freedom of speech. It's a matter of removing the ability of specific actors to deceptively influence our elections directly or to finance those activities furtively. Making disinformation that seeks to undermine or influence our elections illegal and prohibitively costly is a crucial first step to addressing this risk. Youth have a huge stake in preserving our democracy and perhaps especially in our capacity to engage in genuine democratic discourse in our increasingly digital world. Moreover, we must increase awareness of this subject amongst Canadians through transparent and effective oversight and enforcement to underscore the serious nature of safeguarding our elections.

Last, while we commend the work undertaken to date to improve the Canada Elections Act and Canada's democratic process, let me close my remarks by providing a final recommendation to further improve the system under which we collectively operate towards a more inclusive, resilient and informed democracy.

While Bill C-65 directs Elections Canada to further study a three-day voting period, we recommend expanding the scope of this recommendation to weekend voting, as examining both in parallel would be the most efficient use of government resources and could assess the impact in both urban and rural Canada.

Indeed, research suggests that holding elections on weekends could increase voter turnout. Weekend voting addresses a prominent barrier, lack of time, cited by one in four non-voters as the reason they didn't vote in the 2019 election.

This lack of time has only been exacerbated by the cost of living crisis that Canadians are facing. Youth are one of the largest groups of non-voters and, in the most recent survey data, 78% believed that weekend voting would make it easier for them to vote. By prioritizing weekend voting, we would ensure that every citizen has the opportunity to exercise their right to vote, regardless of their schedule or other commitments.

Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Ms. Reusch.

Mr. Mulroy, the floor is yours for upwards of five minutes.

Daniel Mulroy Lawyer, As an Individual

Thank you.

Good afternoon, committee members.

First, I'd like to thank the committee for the invitation to make today's submissions, and I would give a particular thank you to those who aided in the rescheduling of today.

My name is Daniel Mulroy, I am here in my capacity as a human rights and constitutional lawyer and as a disability rights advocate. I am also here on behalf of my client, Mr. Dean Steacy, to address the accessibility of voting for persons with disabilities.

Through my brief submission, I'll introduce Mr. Steacy and his experience as a disabled voter, as well as the legislative mandate that requires Elections Canada to explore accessible electronic voting options to accommodate disabled Canadians. I will also request that this committee consider telephone voting as a viable and secure means of accommodating and franchising disabled voters.

Mr. Steacy—who intended on being here today but due to accessibility issues with the Zoom link will be viewing through ParlVU—has voted in every provincial and federal election since turning 18. From 1976 through to 2003, he was able to cast his ballot secretly, meaningfully and independently in accordance with his rights guaranteed under section 3 of the charter.

However, in 2003, Mr. Steacy permanently lost sight in both of his eyes. Since losing his sight, he's lost the ability to secretly, meaningfully and independently cast his vote in federal elections. Mr. Steacy's experience is not unique. Arguably, the most fundamental barrier for persons with disabilities is the exclusive reliance on the paper ballot and the unwillingness to adopt solutions based on available, accessible and secure technology. Allowing these barriers to continue puts Canada in violation of human rights, the charter and its international obligations pursuant to article 29 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Mr. Steacy is currently in the final stages of launching a charter challenge against the Canada Elections Act, alleging violations of sections 3 and 15 of the charter, as it denies persons with disabilities the opportunity to meaningfully participate in the electoral process and discriminates against disabled electors.

I am here today on his instructions to exhaust all avenues before returning to the courts.

Elections Canada has long recognized the existence of discriminatory barriers in our elections process, and since 1998, it has been aware, one, that technology is essential to accessible voting and, two, that telephone voting is the most viable and secure option.

Parliament has also provided Elections Canada with a clear mandate to explore electronic voting options.

In 2014, section 18.1 of the Canada Elections Act was enacted, requesting that the Chief Electoral Officer devise, test and study an alternative electronic voting process for use in future elections with Parliament's approval. Despite this mandate, no alternative voting process has been tested or proposed for adoption by Parliament, to my knowledge.

Further, in 2018, section 18.1 was amended through the inclusion of subsection 18.1(3), which states, “The Chief Electoral Officer shall develop, obtain or adapt voting technology for use by electors with a disability, and may test the technology for future use in an election.” It also added subsection 18.1(4), which provides that voting technology used for the inclusion of disabled electors needs only the approval of the responsible “committees of the Senate and of the House of Commons” for its use in future elections. However, the Chief Electoral Officer has not developed, obtained or adapted any such voting technology nor sought approval for its use in a federal election.

It is unacceptable that removing the major barrier to inclusive, independent and confidential voting by persons with disabilities has not been accomplished, despite the clear mandate handed to the Chief Electoral Officer 10 years ago and the information being available to Elections Canada for the last 25 years.

Telephone voting stands as the most secure, viable and accommodating voting procedure available, and it would represent an enormous step forward for individuals facing informational barriers, literacy barriers and transportation barriers and for those with visual barriers, like Mr. Steacy.

We respectfully ask this committee to review and report on whether Elections Canada has fulfilled its legislative mandate under section 18.1 and to report on the efficacy of telephone voting as an accommodation that will enable persons with disabilities to exercise their democratic rights on an accessible and equal basis.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Mr. Mulroy.

Mr. Deboran, the floor is yours for up to five minutes.

Peter Deboran Principal (retired), Member of the Steering Committee, Indo-Caribbean Educators Network

Thank you very much.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and everyone. Thank you so much for your kind reinvitation to present to you today on behalf of ICEN, the Indo-Caribbean Educators Network. I'm here about the concerns of ICEN vis-à-vis our letter in support of amendments to Bill C-65.

As you are all well aware, Canadian society has come a long way in recognizing the basic human rights of each of us, starting with the legal status of women, Canadians of African heritage, indigenous rights, queer rights, gender-expression rights and so on. As we have progressed, there has been a focus on recognizing peoples' lived experiences as a way to, if not eliminate, then at least ameliorate the effects of discrimination and exclusion of marginalized individuals and groups of people in our society.

Despite this, there's little information available about the peoples of the Caribbean diaspora in Canada. We know about specific countries there—for example, Jamaica or Guyana or Guadeloupe—but what is not known is that these countries comprise highly multicultural populations and that peoples on the subcontinent of India before partition make up the largest or the second-largest ethnic group in many of these countries. This is due to the colonial expansion of the English, French and Dutch empires, for example, which forced the migration of Indian workers, starting from the very early 1800s to the early 1900s. These peoples have contributed immensely to the cultures, languages, foods, politics, economies and the arts of each of the countries they were brought to.

In Trinidad, for example, where my family is originally from, the largest ethnic group is actually of Indian ancestry. The second-largest is of African ancestry. The culture is infused with strains of Portuguese, Spanish, Chinese, Syrian, Lebanese, Jewish and the last of the indigenous peoples, running through the heart and the history of the peoples of this island, which, for decades, was known as the most multicultural country in the world. That honour was bestowed on another country in the 1970s, and we're all, I believe, the richer for it.

These hybridized peoples of Trinidad have successfully exported calypso; soca, a blend of African and Indian musical traditions; chutney; and delicious curried chicken rotis and doubles to the rest of the world. It is my hope that, if you have never tried a good Trini roti, you will find a way to do it soon.

That said, the ancient country they came from, India, has a cultural and religious tradition that has been dated objectively back as far as 8,000 years ago. At its height, around the years 1500 to 3000 BCE, it produced vast works of literature, including the world's longest epic poem, the Mahabharata, dwarfing other epic poems hailing from Greece and Rome.

Prior to European colonization, India was the richest country on earth for well over a thousand years, with a GDP comprising almost one quarter of the world's GDP combined. Therefore, it will not surprise you to know that the highly developed cultural and religious traditions of classical India have endured in the practices of its peoples wherever and however they went. The Indian diaspora, whether in Mauritius, Singapore, South Africa and throughout the Caribbean, has contributed to and influenced the countries it has found itself in via its foods, music, dress and religions.

Hinduism, a religion that does not seek to convert, is the third-largest religion in the world after Christianity and Islam. This is why we find it necessary to entreat you today. Although we Indians from the Caribbean are a minority group within the Caribbean and more so in Canada, we wish to share with you that Diwali, a major holy day, is practised, observed and celebrated by Hindus in every country they have shared their culture with.

Diwali, known as the festival of lights worldwide, is nationally recognized and celebrated across countries such as Trinidad and Guyana in the Caribbean, in Mauritius, Malaysia and Singapore, and in India, Nepal and other countries across the world. In other words, the whole country celebrates Diwali, not only people who identify as belonging to the Hindu tradition.

Diwali holds immense significance for the Hindu, Jain and Sikh communities and much of the Buddhist community, and symbolizes the triumphs of good over evil, deliberation over impetuousness and insight over ignorance. Diwali also marks the Hindu new year for some communities, thus making it a blessed occasion for new beginnings. In northern India, it is usually a five-day celebration. It is a time for families and friends to come together in celebration, reflection and prayer.

To provide some context of ICEN's involvement, I wish to share that—

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Mr. Deboran, I'm sorry to interrupt. As much as I think the testimony you're providing is quite fruitful and helpful, we are over time. I would ask you to just come to the conclusion of your remarks, please, sir.

12:20 p.m.

Principal (retired), Member of the Steering Committee, Indo-Caribbean Educators Network

Peter Deboran

Absolutely.

In other words, what I'm trying to say is that we are here on behalf of the many people who celebrate within their cultures across this country of ours. Quite frankly, we have found in the past that our electoral days have been set on Diwali. For example, in 2022, there was consternation across the whole of southern Ontario, with hundreds of thousands of communities unable to actually go to the voting process because they had to choose between their faith and their civic duties.

We are saying that, while Canada is justifiably proud of its tradition as a multicultural country, we ask all of you, we urge all of you, to look to set future dates for elections with a sensitivity and a respect to the many thousands of Hindus and other multicultural communities who will be observing Diwali in 2025. As you move forward in the future, please take a look at other religious traditions that are just as important in our multicultural society as those who practise the Christian and Jewish faiths.

Thank you so much for your time.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Duncan, the floor will be yours for six minutes.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Duncan Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being with us this afternoon.

Mr. Deboran, I want to ask a question. We're always learning new things, and you gave us more details about Diwali. You mentioned the proposal of moving the election date back a week, from October 20 to October 27, which did get and has gotten, rightfully so, a lot of negative feedback, not on the Diwali aspect so much as what is seen as moving the election back a week for pension guarantees for MPs who would miss it otherwise by a day.

I just want to ask this for you to be on the record. In order to not conflict with Diwali next year and the fixed election date, the only option is not just to move it back one week to October 27, as was proposed by the NDP and Liberals. In fact, the election date could be moved and advanced ahead to not conflict with Diwali and the celebrations that go on.

One week before would be Monday, October 13, which would be Thanksgiving. I think we would agree that would not be an ideal time. If I were to say Monday, October 6, would that be a date that would not conflict and be appropriate as well?

12:25 p.m.

Principal (retired), Member of the Steering Committee, Indo-Caribbean Educators Network

Peter Deboran

Absolutely. The main concern for many of the thousands of people who are conflicted by this is that, like I said, on the one hand we have a country that purports to say we are multicultural in respect to all cultures, faiths and traditions, yet on the other hand, there was this arbitrary date that was chosen. I believe, yes, October 6 would work very well.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Duncan Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON

I appreciate that. One of the things I think about Diwali, too, is it being a multi-day celebration. I know in my part of eastern Ontario, I always have an interesting Thanksgiving weekend, where on the Saturday I have a Thanksgiving meal with my family, and then I go to a large Diwali celebration at the Benson Centre in Cornwall.

I appreciate your clarification that the election date did not need to move back a week in order to accommodate what you have requested. In fact, the fixed date could be moved ahead to any other time besides October 20. I appreciate your clarifying that for us.

Ms. Reusch, I want to ask—

12:25 p.m.

Principal (retired), Member of the Steering Committee, Indo-Caribbean Educators Network

Peter Deboran

I come from a multi-faith family, so like you, we also celebrate Thanksgiving as well as Diwali.