Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses who are here today. Thank you for the important testimony you've provided to date.

Ms. Reusch, I'm going to start with you.

In your opening statement, you talked about the importance of genuine democratic discourse in our increasingly digital world. I'm wondering if you can provide an example or two of what it is that you're hearing from young adults and youth about what they're experiencing online.

Could you give us a bit of a picture of what that looks like?

[Samantha Reusch]

Yes. Thank you for that question.

It's very interesting. We participated in a study on polarization with the Public Policy Forum a few years ago and did a number of focus groups with young people about how they were feeling about online discourse and how it either helped or didn't help their sense of democratic participation or their desire to participate. The prevailing feedback we got was that it just made them feel disconnected from.... They were confused about their own opinions, disconnected from other citizens and uncertain about our institutions.

I think the general confusion and swirl and anxiety of engaging online created really difficult circumstances for them to assess, make decisions and understand how people they respect and care about think about things. It made discourse more difficult. A lot of conversations are happening online in an environment that is incredibly polarized and increasingly extreme. Just generally, as you're trying to figure out your own political orientation, it's not conducive to good, civic discourse.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much.

Was it your sense that this also impacted voter turnout?

[Samantha Reusch]

In terms of barriers to voting, we know that there are access barriers, which we've discussed a little bit today. Those are with respect to electors with disabilities. On the other side, there are the motivational barriers that keep people from getting to the polling stations. A lack of trust in institutions can be a major one. We hear these things over and over across thousands of conversations: My vote isn't going to make a difference. Elected officials don't care about me. The parties are the same.

There's the sense that they don't trust or don't feel part of that system. I think that can certainly be aggravated by the way the discourse takes place online.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much. I think it reinforces the importance of some of the components of this bill as well.

Mr. Mulroy, I'm sorry that you weren't able to provide your testimony at the last meeting, along with Mr. Steacy. I'm happy that arrangements were made for you to be here today.

I'm wondering if you could speak a bit more high level, of course, in a minute or less, about how telephone voting really works. What does that look like for somebody who wants to cast their ballot through telephone voting, if it's available?

[Daniel Mulroy]

Certainly. I'll leave the fine details to people who are far more educated on that than I am.

Individuals who would qualify for telephone voting would be individuals who have barriers to polling stations. These would be individuals like Mr. Steacy, who have visual impairments and cannot meaningfully cast their ballot on a paper ballot. What's been proposed is that they would receive a verified code. They would be able to call and cast their ballot via phone.

Today most individuals, including those in low socio-economic positions, have access to telephones, so it's quite an accessible means for casting a ballot. You would be able to phone a designated phone number, verify who you are, verify your identity and then cast a ballot for the individual you choose to vote for.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Mulroy, do you have any sense of what is creating the barriers to being able to move forward with something like this? Are you hearing any information that I'm not as to why this has not been put into place so far?

[Daniel Mulroy]

I haven't a clue. It seems that the data has been there for over 25 years now. The mandate has been clear to the Chief Electoral Officer for decades. Something needs to be done to make voting more accessible for Canadians. There's been an abject failure to do so.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Mulroy.

Do you think the lack of options for people living with disabilities to be able to cast their ballot in an autonomous way, in such a way that they are confident in their ballot, is a barrier to voter turnout for people living with disabilities?

[Daniel Mulroy]

Without question it is. The data also supports that there's a significant gap in voter turnout for persons with disabilities for precisely the reasons you've listed.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you so much.

Ms. Reusch, you talked about the importance of on-campus voting. I'm wondering if you could expand on that a little more. I've heard from students about not only having the accessible option for them to be able to cast their ballot while on campus but also seeing the community coming on campus to participate in this very important democratic process of casting their ballot.

I'm wondering if you could share a bit more around how important it is that we see on-campus ballots offered consistently every time there is an election happening.

[Samantha Reusch]

I definitely agree with those assessments. I'll actually add one of the barriers that we see with students in particular. As was mentioned previously, voting in your first two elections can set a habit for lifelong participation. It's a really key time to get voters voting in their first election. For students who are studying away from home for the first time, it's often a big change in their lives. They're likely living away from home for the first time. There are some unique barriers there around not being certain which riding they should vote in or which one they're registered in, whether it's at home with mom and dad or in their new home. They may not receive a voter information card for that reason. They may not have their parents there to remind them.

Adding these on-campus polling stations allows for that community to spring up around them. It allows them to vote in the riding they're registered in, which could or could not be the riding they're residing in. It at least provides the resources to help them figure that out and allows them to cast their ballot and exercise their charter rights in that way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you very much, Ms. Barron.

Mr. Cooper, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'll be moving the following motion:

That, given that the committee has learned that staff from the Prime Minister’s Office and the Office of the Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs met with NDP party representatives, representatives from the PCO, and the Chief Electoral Officer on January 25, 2024 on matters relating to Bill C-65, and that the Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs, along with his parliamentary secretary and staff from his office and the parliamentary secretary’s office met with NDP party representatives, an NDP member of Parliament, representatives from the PCO, and the Chief Electoral Officer on March 30, 2024 on matters relating to Bill C-65, the committee:

a) order the office of the Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs and the PMO to provide the committee with all of the dates on which any representatives from the Liberal Party, including party officials, ministers, parliamentary secretaries, minister’s office staff, and members of Parliament met with any representatives from the NDP, including party officials, and members of Parliament on matters relating to Bill C-65, and the names and titles of the individuals who attended those meetings;

b) order the production of any documents under the control of the PCO, PMO, any minister’s office, and Elections Canada, including any documents used as briefing materials in any of those meetings, and any records of conversations, including emails, text messages, or any other form of communication, about those meetings, and any records of discussions that took place at those meetings and/or decisions that were made at those meetings, and that these documents are to be provided to the clerk with no redactions within one week of the adoption of this motion; and

c) invite Daniel Blaikie, former member of Parliament for Elmwood—Transcona and former democratic reform critic for the NDP and a co-author of Bill C-65, to appear before the committee on its study of Bill C-65.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Okay.

Colleagues, I'm going to just very briefly suspend because I imagine members do not have a copy of this at the moment, certainly not in both official languages.

Ms. Gaudreau, I don't think you received a copy of the motion. Is that right?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I haven't received anything.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

I think it's the same for Ms. Fortier and Mrs. Romanado.

Colleagues, I'm going to suspend briefly.

Witnesses, I'm going to forewarn you that I imagine this unfortunately is going to potentially take a couple of minutes, and I do not have the ability to extend the meeting today. Bear with us, but there is a possibility that we may unfortunately not have any time remaining for you.

Colleagues, I'm suspending in order to allow for the distribution of the motion in both official languages.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Colleagues, my understanding is that members now have a copy of the motion presented by Mr. Cooper in both official languages.

Mr. Cooper retains the floor, and I'll turn it back over to him.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I put forward this motion given what we learned at this committee, namely that the NDP met with the minister, officials in the minister's office, the PCO, the PMO and the Chief Electoral Officer on at least two occasions regarding the drafting of Bill C-65, which has been held up by the Liberals as an elections bill. It turns out that it is really a pensions bill disguised as an elections bill, because buried within this so-called elections bill is a clause that would secure the pensions of soon-to-be-defeated Liberal MPs and, I might add, soon-to-be-defeated NDP MPs.

The situation the Prime Minister faces is that he is the most unpopular Prime Minister in more than 30 years. Canadians are tired of this corrupt Liberal government, and he knows it. Liberal MPs know it. The problem they have is that the Prime Minister must call an election by October 20, 2025. That means the soon-to-be-defeated Liberal MPs elected in 2019 won't qualify for their pensions.

What does the Minister of Democratic Institutions do? He sneaks eight laws into this bill that push the date of the next election back by a week, under the guise of a conflict with Diwali. Guess what. By moving the election back by one week, suddenly the soon-to-be-defeated Liberal MPs will qualify for their pensions. It is why this bill came to be known as the “loser Liberal pension protection act”. It is, I must say, about as cynical and dishonest as it gets from this cynical, dishonest and corrupt Liberal government. While this bill has become known as the “loser Liberal pension protection act”, it seems it might be better known as the “loser NDP-Liberal pension protection act”, given the role that we learned the NDP played in drafting this legislation.

When the minister was here, he had an opportunity to clarify exactly how many times he met behind closed doors with NDP party officials, Daniel Blaikie and other NDP members of Parliament to devise this scheme to pad the pockets of soon-to-be-defeated Liberal and NDP MPs. The minister refused to answer.

Very simply, Mr. Chair, when the minister, NDP MPs and officials in the PMO, the PCO and so on meet behind closed doors to cynically and dishonestly concoct this scheme to pad their pensions, Canadians deserve transparency. There must be transparency. That is what this motion provides for. It requires the minister and the Prime Minister's Office to disclose how many meetings were held to produce any communications surrounding the discussions that led to this pensions bill disguised as an elections bill, and to hear from the co-author of this bill, former NDP MP Daniel Blaikie. It's a common-sense motion.

As the Prime Minister often liked to say, sunshine is the best disinfectant. Well, this will provide a lot of sunshine on what is a very dark and cynical attempt to pad the pockets of Liberal and NDP MPs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cooper.

Colleagues, we are at one o'clock and we are out of resources.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

We can call the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

I'm going to move adjourn at this point.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Could we not call the question? There are no other speakers. I pulled my name. If we take one minute just to call the question, I think that would be worthwhile.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

I'm looking around to see if there are any colleagues who want to speak to this.

Ms. Barron.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

If I have some things to say on this, do we have the time for me to speak to it? This is what I'm trying to figure out.