Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

So I will yield the floor to Mr. Calkins and then to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Go ahead, Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not expressing any frustration with your answer, but we're in the context of a current by-election, and I don't know what the context of the strike is with the Canada Post situation. Elections Canada has relied tremendously on Canada Post to be able to deliver not only special ballots but mail-in ballots.

You said that you had other manners of finding a way to resolve the fact that you no longer have the use of Canada Post. For my benefit, could you be a little more specific? Doing this in a by-election is one thing when all you have is one.

I'd be curious to see how that would manifest itself if there was a Canada Post strike during a general election.

[Robert Sampson]

I think it's dangerous to say how this would manifest itself in a general election, because it's a very different matter to administer a by-election and a general election, both with respect to—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Yes, that's my point.

[Robert Sampson]

—geography but also the number of electors participating.

There are two areas that are a challenge for Elections Canada that have arisen because of the postal strike. There is the issue of mail-in ballots, and that is being addressed through other courier services and by direct delivery and direct pickup.

The other issue is voter information cards. The information that is normally supplied on voter information cards will be supplied and available on our website. We have an intensive communication campaign to drive electors to the voter information service on the website, and they will receive the information there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Calkins, I have a few things I have to say before the meeting ends here.

Colleagues, I am going to seriously inquire with the clerk about whether or not resources until midnight tonight are available. I will remind the committee that it is the chair's prerogative as to when we meet or not. The sense that I have taken away from today's meeting is that this is a long bill. There are serious inquiries being made on the part of members. That means we have to dedicate time to make sure that we can hear those inquiries.

This is a reminder that I will be consulting with the clerk and that at any moment, meetings can be called at the prerogative of the chair, should I feel it's necessary. Right now, I will reflect on this. My belief at the moment is that it may very well be necessary.

At this time, I do want to thank our witnesses very much for what was a very impressive and sophisticated set of responses.

We do have a speaking order that remains.

Mr. Berthold, you're on that list.

For that reason, we'll be suspending.

Have a great day, everyone.

[The meeting was suspended at 12:59 p.m., Thursday, December 5]

[The meeting resumed at 11:02 a.m., Tuesday, December 10]

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Good morning, everybody.

We'll start the meeting immediately.

I call this meeting to order.

This is a resumption of meeting 137 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

This is a reminder to witnesses and others that if you're not using your earpiece, please place it on the sticker in front of you in order to avoid harmful audio feedback that can jeopardize the health and well-being of our translators.

Colleagues, we are here to resume clause-by-clause on Bill C-65.

We do have a couple of witnesses back with us today.

From the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, we welcome back Mr. Knight, the general counsel.

From the Privy Council Office, we have with us Candice Ramalho, senior policy adviser. Joining us virtually is Rachel Pereira, director, electoral and senatorial policy unit.

Mr. Blois, welcome to PROC. It's nice to see you here today.

Colleagues, with that, we are going to resume.

Mr. Cooper, the last time I checked my list, you maintained the floor, so I'm going to give you the floor, sir.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Is this on clause 2?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

That is correct, Mr. Cooper. Yes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I'm fine for now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Colleagues, seeing no further speakers, we're going to go to a vote.

Is this you indicating that you would like to speak? I didn't see any indication of that.

I yield the floor to you.

Mr. Duncan, did you want to speak?

All right. I understand that's not the case.

Mr. Berthold, you have the floor.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I have no questions.

I'll yield the floor to my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

That's precisely what I was going to propose, Mr. Berthold.

Mr. Duncan or Mr. Calkins, are you prepared?

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I'm prepared.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ben Carr]

Mr. Duncan, the floor is yours, followed by Mr. Calkins.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you. I have my book open here first. We're right at it here.

Mr. Chair, through you, thank you to our witnesses for being back today.

As we talk about clause 2, I don't know if there's been a chance for reflection on Elections Canada's behalf.

Last week, I asked several questions about the new nature of this, particularly with the role of scrutineers in the interactions, the uniqueness of polling stations in long-term care settings and the assistance of electors in casting their ballot. This is of particular concern and a major change.

Has there been any more thought from Elections Canada? I know it's only been a few days, but I do think this is important for us to perhaps have some assurances on.

Is there collection of data or statistics on the number of individuals in long-term care settings who were assisted and the number of individuals who did help? For an example, one staff member assisted 34 electors to cast their ballot at a long-term care home.

Is there a way or a commitment of some sort that when we're looking at this.... The reason I ask is, after every general election—actually after every by-election, I believe—we get a report from Elections Canada. It is very insightful and helps us with legislative and policy changes.

Is there an ability or a way that Elections Canada can tell us that it will be able to collect that information and share that in something like the report that comes back to us?

[Trevor Knight]

I don't have further information from what was shared on Tuesday other than to say that while there is a newness element to this provision, it is something that happens right now, but I understand you're saying that you would like better reporting.

That is something I will take back and we'll have a chance to reflect on it before the next election.

I don't see any operational difficulties at this point for that. In fact, I suspect that information is already collected, but to be honest, I don't have an answer on the operational aspects of that right now.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I appreciate that.

The reason I keep mentioning it proactively is that I think some sort of instruction has to be set up so that this is a statistic that those working at a poll in a long-term care setting will need to track in one way.

The individual who assists an elector has to do an oath or a declaration. Is it for each individual they assist? How does that work? For example, if I were a dietary aide at long-term care residence and I was asked that day if I could go around and see who would like help voting, would I do a declaration for each individual? Would that be logged?

I want to give a bit more context as to why I am so adamant in asking about this. I just don't want to be seen as not wanting to ensure that every elector in a long-term care residence is afforded the opportunity to vote. That is key. It is important. But I want to make sure that it's not prone to abuse and that we don't all of a sudden see individuals helping 20, 30, 40 or 50 people at a polling station where last time around 14 people voted. That's not to say that it wouldn't be a success—they were asked to do it—but I want to make sure we have some guardrails and statistics on that and to perhaps raise any concerns on that.

Maybe to summarize my question, is there a written oath or written documentation for each time one person helps? Is there a way to log that through the paperwork you have at a long-term care polling station?

[Trevor Knight]

There is a written document that is signed by the elector who's assisting another elector. The only circumstance right now where an elector can assist another elector is if it's their relative or family member. In other cases, which, as we have talked about, right now is limited to people who are referred to as friends, they are only permitted to assist a single other elector.

If a person came in as a family member at two different times, they would, I am sure, be asked to fill out two different forms as an assistant. If it was a person at a polling place with two elderly parents, for example, I suspect that they may only be asked to fill out one form. I don't have a certain answer on that. I am just sort of responding in a practical sense.

If these amendments were to change, you're correct that a person at a long-term care home facility could potentially assist more than one elector. We would have to ensure that proper controls and records were maintained. I take your question to be along those lines, emphasizing the need for those controls and records. Absolutely that would be something we would do. How specifically we would achieve that, I'm hesitant to say at this stage.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I appreciate that.

I'll malign myself here a little bit, if I could, not to give an example but to use myself as a party representative candidate on the ballot. In theory, the way the rules change in long-term care homes is that it's not just a staff member at a long-term care home. Any elector can assist someone at a poll, and multiple electors. In theory, I as a campaign representative could go to the long-term care home and go door to door in the building up to 12 hours before at a polling location and be there on a certain day or days. I have 14 people who would like to vote. If I sign 14 pieces of paper, I can go back and help those 14 people. It's not just in long-term care settings where it is staff who are within a polling station or at a long-term care home. In theory, anyone in this room could go in and help multiple electors.

That's quite a guardrail removal, correct?

[Trevor Knight]

It is.... Any person could, you are correct. In the particular instance of a long-term care home, I see your point about scrutineers. It is true that this would allow any person to assist multiple electors.

Again, I think you're absolutely right to raise the need for record-keeping and other guardrails around that.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

As a follow-up to that, are there any restrictions on a candidate or a campaign's representative from doing that?

Let's say I signed in and Mr. Calkins came out to help me in Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry. He would always be appreciated and welcome—thank you—although he may be busy as well in Red Deer. If he went as a scrutineer at the polling location at a long-term care location, are there any restrictions on candidates or campaign representatives from using that and doing that at either a long-term care setting or a regular or advance poll location?

This is where I'm going with this. As you look at this, it could be prone to abuse. Campaign representatives could go in and say they're there to assist 15 electors, walk in, sign the oath and go into the back with them, right by the ballot box. I as Mr. Duncan could make sure that Mr. Knight, who needs help, casts the right ballot, “Yep, you've cast the right ballot at the right spot,” and off you go in an unlimited number.

[Trevor Knight]

Thank you for allowing me to take the time to check.

There is no restriction on somebody, whether they're a candidate representative or someone else, assisting more than one elector. Although, obviously, under the current law, it's only family members.