Evidence of meeting #31 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was able.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stéphan Aubé  Chief Information Officer, Digital Services and Real Property, House of Commons
Michel Patrice  Deputy Clerk, Administration, House of Commons
Eric Janse  Deputy Clerk, Procedure, House of Commons
Charles Robert  Clerk of the House of Commons
Dona Cadman  Former Member of Parliament, As an Individual
Léo Duguay  President, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Ms. Sahota, I see that your hand is up.

Noon

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

Yes, I have a request to you and the committee, Madam Chair.

Mr. Aubé and the Speaker alluded to different studies that we'd done before this. I think some of the testimony and the findings from those studies might be useful. I'm wondering if it's okay with the committee if we allow our analysts to include reference to those studies as well.

I am referencing the study of February 2, 2016, and especially the latest studies that we've done in 2020. There were a couple of studies that were tabled.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you for that.

They are all related to the hybrid proceedings, I guess, so it would probably be relevant to be able to have them.

I don't see any objections.

Go ahead, Ms. Gaudreau.

Noon

Bloc

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

It's still based on the questions that have been asked today, Madam Chair. If it's something that our witnesses couldn't share with us because of time constraints, I think that's in order, but no more than that.

Noon

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

This is a point of clarification, Madam Chair.

Is Ms. Sahota asking that we include those studies as part of our overall report that will be done or that they're presented to committee members for further consideration when we do our report and our draft report?

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Ms. Sahota, do you want to respond to that?

Noon

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

I would say both, and I'm open to hearing from the committee members on that. If we could include them, then referencing them would be made possible, and we'd also have them to view.

Noon

Conservative

Brad Vis Conservative Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, BC

If the House of Commons has already undertaken background information related to the utility of a hybrid Parliament, that is something that would be appropriate to include in the background work of any study, given that those were reports written on behalf of all parliamentarians through House administration.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you, Mr. Vis, Ms. Sahota and Madam Gaudreau.

Mr. Speaker, and your entire team, thank you for all you do. You make it look very easy. Keep up the good work, and enjoy the rest of your day.

Noon

Liberal

Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

Thank you for having us.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

We will suspend to switch the panels.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Welcome back for the second panel on our study of hybrid proceedings.

I would like to welcome our guests who have joined us. We have with us Parm Bains, MP for Steveston—Richmond East; Laurel Collins, MP for Victoria; Dona Cadman, former member of Parliament; and Léo Duguay, president of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians. Welcome to all.

We will start with three-minute opening comments, so if you could keep to three minutes, it would be greatly appreciated.

We'll start with Mr. Bains.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the honourable members of Parliament for inviting me as a witness for this important study.

I am Parm Bains. In 2021, I was honoured to be chosen by the people of Steveston—Richmond East to serve as their member of Parliament. However, well before I was elected—in my thirties—my doctor discovered that I was born with a solitary kidney and, at some point in my life, I would need a replacement.

As I began my work as an MP in Ottawa, my symptoms worsened and upon my return to B.C., I was informed that my only kidney was deteriorating faster than expected. The time had come to prepare for a transplant, and I was to immediately receive dialysis treatment.

To ensure that there were no conflicts with my parliamentary responsibilities, I trained myself to self-administer the dialysis treatment at the nocturnal dialysis unit at Vancouver General Hospital, where I would stay overnight three days a week. While I waited for my transplant, it was crucial that I avoid contracting viruses, like COVID-19, so that I could be operated on safely when the time came. If it had not been for the hybrid Parliament provisions, I could not have safeguarded my health and kept my commitment to represent my constituents in Parliament.

Because I was able to fulfill my responsibilities virtually in the House of Commons and in committees, I was able to speak to bills, the Emergencies Act and the study on military procurement, and share an untold inclusive Canadian heritage story confronting the realities of systemic racism. I was also able to provide statements in the House regarding key investments the government is making in Richmond—over $100 million so far, since 2015. I have been able to participate in all respective caucus meetings to communicate Richmond's economic and service priorities. I was able to vote on every important measure introduced in the House.

In 2016, this committee released a report entitled “Initiatives toward a family-friendly House of Commons”. Although the virtual proceedings were not one of the recommendations, the hybrid provisions are vital to the pressures caused by uncontrollable long absences from Ottawa. The hybrid provisions allowed me to fulfill my parliamentary obligations, limit my exposure, maintain strong mental health and reduce the fears my family had as they supported me through my health journey.

I would like to end by thanking all the medical professionals, the dialysis unit, Canadian Blood Services and the organ transplant team at Vancouver General Hospital for making it possible to appear before you all. I received my transplant in August. I am very fortunate and extremely grateful to be able to continue serving the city. I was raised in Richmond, British Columbia, the province in which I was born.

I look forward to joining my colleagues in the new year in Ottawa.

Thank you.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you, Mr. Bains. We look forward to seeing you back in Ottawa too. I didn't know that, so I thank you for sharing that with us today. I wish you good health.

Ms. Collins, three minutes go to you.

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the committee for the invitation to speak here today. The work members do in the House of Commons and in committee is vital.

Critics of hybrid Parliament often imply that virtual work somehow results in members doing less work, so I'd like to share four examples of how hybrid Parliament gave me the chance to keep working when I otherwise would not have been able to.

The first example I want to share is when I was pregnant. At that time, my midwives recommended that I not travel in my third trimester. I wanted to keep working, and virtual Parliament allowed me to continue participating in debates in the House of Commons, to vote, to question ministers in question period, to continue my work on the environment committee, and to continue bringing my constituents' concerns to Parliament. If we hadn't had virtual Parliament for those three months, I wouldn't have been able to do any of those things. I wouldn't have been able to do my job. Instead, I was able to continue working into my ninth month of pregnancy. Not every woman wants to do that, but every woman deserves the choice. Women deserve the choice to participate. I've said it before and I'll say it again: If you want more young women to enter politics and more women to stay in politics, make Parliament more family-friendly. Hybrid Parliament is a tangible way to do that.

This connects to the second example I'll share. As the parent of a young infant, being allowed to work remotely when needed means that I've had the flexibility to keep working, even when we've had occasional child care challenges.

The third example is when I was sick. Like many members who got COVID-19 this past year, I followed public health guidelines and isolated. I wouldn't have been able to continue working if it weren't for virtual Parliament. I participated in committees, voted and rose numerous times in the House, all while isolating.

The last example I want to share is when my father passed away. I was able to fly home to visit him while he was still lucid and to keep working while remaining close by. Then, a couple of weeks later, I was grateful to be able to quickly get to the hospital when the doctor called, so that I was present when he passed.

Virtual or hybrid Parliament is fundamentally about giving flexibility to members in order to ensure we can continue to participate. When members are sick with COVID or other illnesses, in the later stages of pregnancy, or have a family emergency, this is a tool that allows us to continue to carry out our duties as members of Parliament.

I hope that hybrid Parliament is strengthened to make sure there are more stringent accountability requirements for the government and ministers, but also to make sure there are enough translators and policies to deal with technical difficulties and interpretation challenges, so we can take care of the health and safety of workers and ensure members can participate equally in both languages.

I hope you make hybrid Parliament permanent, so we can make Parliament more accessible for future members, especially women, members with young families and members with disabilities. Make hybrid Parliament permanent, because it's an important tool to increase participation and representation, and to make Parliament more equitable for all.

Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you for those opening comments.

Ms. Cadman, it's nice to see you. Welcome to committee. You have three minutes.

October 4th, 2022 / 12:15 p.m.

Dona Cadman Former Member of Parliament, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

Good morning, and thank you for allowing me to participate in this discussion.

Something happened this weekend that made me stop and say, “What the fuck. Why do shitty things happen to good people?”

I've known my sister-in-law's brother and wife for some 30 years. Over the years they have lost a son to a motor vehicle accident, and a year and half ago their other son became a victim of the opioid crisis that we find ourselves in. Three weeks ago the wife was diagnosed with cancer and died on Saturday. So here he is, my sister-in-law's brother is all alone. His family unit that he and his wife created is gone. Anyone's life can change in a blink of an eye. I know this all too well.

On October 18, 1992, we were thrown into every parent's worst nightmare. While walking home from the bus stop, our son Jesse and two of his friends were set upon by six other older and bigger youths. In the ensuing scuffle, Jesse was stabbed in the back, which pierced his heart and lungs. A quarter of an inch would have made a difference. A young man's life was cut short at 16 in a matter of minutes.

From 1993 to 1997, my late husband and I, with incredible friends, formed a non-profit organization called CRY, or Crime, Responsibility and Youth, to lobby for changes to the Young Offenders Act.

In June 1997, my husband, Chuck, was elected MP for Surrey North. In 2004, Chuck was diagnosed with cancer, and the following months were filled with doctor appointments, surgery, chemo and drugs. Physically, it was getting harder and harder to travel back and forth from our home in B.C. to Ottawa. His last flight from Ottawa was in May 2005 after the vote that saved the government from an election. He died on July 9, 2005. Three years later, I was elected in Surrey North, and served from 2008 to 2011. I can speak as an MP and as a spouse from experience.

Our point of being elected is to be the voice of our community that elected us. Sitting in Ottawa does us no favours. The jet lag from back and forth travelling can play havoc with your health. In our case, it was only three hours twice a week, but when you counted door-to-door travel, it added on 20 hours. For some MPs, it was worse.

COVID changed everything. Virtual meetings became a normal way of conducting business, and keeping in touch with friends and families. Chuck would have loved to be able to participate while recovering from surgery. Mentally he was fine, but the body was suffering. You can't ignore the fact that jet lag plays a prominent role in a person's health, with multiple time zones. The thought of staying in the riding but still participating in government proceedings, wow, this sounds so good!

This October 18 will be the 30th year since our tragic family event that drove both me and my late husband, Chuck, into politics. Much has changed, but much hasn't. We need more efficient government for our constituents. Let's not let tradition be an enemy of our progress.

Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you.

Monsieur Duguay, it's over to you.

12:20 p.m.

Léo Duguay President, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First of all, I want to thank you for the opportunity to talk to you a little bit about a topic that has been very close to my heart for a very long time.

Just looking at it historically, in 1985, when I was first elected, our government started a special committee on the renewal of Parliament. I asked the prime minister if I could be part of that committee, so I was named. It didn't take very long, in a short meeting with the chair of the committee, James McGrath, to realize that when people talk about renewing Parliament and making changes to Parliament, there is an incredible kind of momentum that drags it back to where it has always been.

In 1985 I wanted to look at two things. The first was to look at electronic voting. The second was to look at improving the House of Commons, looking particularly at question period, which, as you know, has been and is a show that takes away from committees, where a lot of you do some magnificent work.

Having said that, I'm in Charlottetown today. I could not participate in this meeting were it not for Zoom. I think that speaks for itself.

The three other panellists have made the case for why we need to have a hybrid Parliament. I want to make the case simply to say that there are lots of safeguards built into this. I mean, there are whips in our caucuses. There is the electorate. There is the Speaker. I think we currently have an incredible ability, as your Speaker said, to deal with honourable members. When honourable members don't act honourably, someone else usually takes that into consideration, and that is usually the electorate.

By the way, the association of former members of Parliament and senators is an association to which all of you will one day belong. I just want to hope for you that you belong to our association at a time of your own choosing. We have a lot of members of our association who did not choose to be ex-members of Parliament, but they are.

I will close with this one offer. Former members have time on their hands. They have expertise. They care a lot about democracy and they care a lot about Parliament. Our association would be pleased to put together a special committee of members, of all political stripes and ideas, to look at the renewal of Parliament. Parliament's renewal is a complex thing. A hybrid Parliament is one aspect of it. I think there is very strong agreement to continue a hybrid Parliament, but there are a lot of other things that could be done.

Simply put, if you ask former members of Parliament, who care a lot, if we want to help, the answer is “yes”. We care, and we will help.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you so much, Monsieur Duguay, for your words and for your offer of help.

We will now enter into our six-minute round. We will start with Mrs. Falk, followed by Madam Romanado, Madam Gaudreau and then Mrs. Blaney.

Just as a reminder to members and guests, all comments and responses should be made through the chair, please.

Mrs. Falk, you have six minutes.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Through you, I want to thank all my colleagues and the witnesses who have presented and are contributing to this important discussion.

We know that the work we do as parliamentarians has a real impact on the daily lives of Canadians. I think that's why it's so critical that these discussions centre around efficacy and also efficiency so that any resulting recommendations from the study aren't serving us but are better serving in the best interest of the Canadians we serve. I think that's very important and should be top of mind.

In discussing the hybrid Parliament, we know there are obvious discussions around work-life balance and the impact it has on the abilities of MPs to perform to their fullest in their job. I am a mother of four young children. I had my most recent child five months ago, and I would propose, even, that hybrid Parliament has its own challenges that we've all endeavoured.... There's an expectation that members of Parliament are fully engaged in parliamentary work, which I absolutely agree we need to be in order to be successful for our constituents. When you're home in the riding, there are other priorities and responsibilities that are competing for your time. Each and every one of us knows that. Whether that's family obligations, local events or local engagements, there seems to be an expectation that because you are physically present, you can do all of these, and do them to your fullest. But I would say that in reality, that's actually to the detriment of our executing our parliamentary responsibilities.

We've come across limited resources with committees when we've done hybrid. I know that all of us have experienced committees that couldn't be extended due to a lack of resources. Sound checks have gotten better than they were in the early days, but through you, Madam Chair, I'm wondering if the witnesses would agree that the committee work that is done is critical to the parliamentary process and that this work should not be limited by resources.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

We'll go in reverse order.

Mr. Duguay.

12:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians

Léo Duguay

I'll leave the question of resources up to you. That's your job, not mine.

I can only reiterate what I feel very strongly about. The best work in Parliament gets done in committees, and other things sometimes, including question period, detract from the excellent work that members of Parliament do. I think you should try to do everything you can to make sure the committees are fully resourced.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Ms. Cadman.

12:25 p.m.

Former Member of Parliament, As an Individual

Dona Cadman

Yes, I think the committees should continue. We have to have the committees. I still think you can do things over the Internet. It's been proven that we can do it. Security, of course, has to be tightened. The security that I think could be tightened is on the back end, not necessarily with us, the people who are using it and who are getting three to four meeting IDs, passwords...too many passwords and things.

I would suggest that you start thinking about the back end instead of the front end.

Thank you.