Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2022

[Cherie Henderson]

I would say in that situation that we would always strive to share information. We always want to engage with our partners—police partners, protective services, RCMP—to ensure that we share the proper information, so we strive not to have any barriers to information sharing.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

This may be a bit out of your area of expertise, but given the tourist attraction of Parliament Hill, the seat of government, and parliamentarians and the people who work on Parliament Hill, would you, in your expert opinion, recommend that Wellington remain closed to vehicular traffic?

[Cherie Henderson]

We wouldn't be in a position to make that recommendation, but as we are all aware, that is the symbol of democracy of our country. It is always going to be a place that attracts and gathers individuals. When we are aware of large potential protests, we are always monitoring these for opportunities that could be presented to IMVE actors to promote or engage in serious acts of violence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, and thank you for what you're doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Gaudreau, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just have one question for the witnesses, and that is about what happened in 2014 as compared to what is happening today. I did not get an answer earlier as to who stepped in and who raised the red flag. I don't know whether it was the Ottawa Police Service, the RCMP, the Parliamentary Protective Service, or someone else.

Since the witnesses told us in their testimony that it has now been eight years, have they observed, in the course of their work, a difference in operational activities, a difference in the strategy for ensuring the security of the parliamentary precinct?

[Cherie Henderson]

I wouldn't be able to comment specifically on the safety strategy applied within the parliamentary precinct. What I would say is that since the events of 2014 we have certainly worked tirelessly to ensure that we are closely coordinating on any potential threats to the national security of our country, any potential threats to any area in Canada that could be victim to a national security threat. We are collecting information to the best of our ability and sharing that. We are always striving to improve the information-sharing practices. It's extremely important that we improve communications, and we consistently work to ensure that information is appropriately shared.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Since I have some time left, I'm going to ask you another question.

What could be improved to help you to do your good work? What would be something very important that would enable you to keep better watch to detect potential threats?

[Cherie Henderson]

One of the things that would help us greatly in this day and age is the ability to really access and use data. We did get changes to the data regime in Bill C-59, but from what we're experiencing it is still not as fluid. We want to ensure, of course, that we respect the privacy of Canadians. We are fully bound by the charter, but we need to find an ability to crunch and use data to help us assess threats as we move into the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, you have two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to come back to one of the questions from Ms. Romanado around the security of the trucks. That was a significant concern. We have heard testimony that the RCMP did not have the technology required to determine what was in those trucks.

I understand you can't tell us everything, but I feel like there's a pretty significant gap there. Is there any way we can do better? Do you have any recommendations around that? Do you have any way to have intelligence on this issue? You don't have to talk specifically, but I'm concerned in the long term that if there isn't a process to make sure we can assess this, it provides a risk that we are now proclaiming to everyone, because this is on the public record.

[Cherie Henderson]

At that time.... What we tend to do—and Newton spoke about this—is we really closely monitor all the opportunities that could potentially arise in this type of environment. We're closely keeping an eye on the potential for anyone to incite or lead to engaging in violent extremist activities.

While, as I noted before, we do not monitor legal protests, we certainly keep an eye out to make sure we're aware of anything—any outward influences, external influences—that could lead to potential serious violence.

We also continue to monitor other streams of intelligence reporting so that we can collect and get a better picture. That's why it's so fundamentally important that we continue to communicate, because each agency engaged will have a small piece of the picture that could help create that better picture. Again, it goes back to really good communication and information-sharing, and breaking down any barriers that prevent that sharing ability.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Just quickly, what I heard is that your concern really focuses around lone actors who could provide violent outcomes, and that is directly linked with extremist groups. I just want to make sure that's clear.

[Cherie Henderson]

I would say that our concern is not only lone actors. Lone actors are difficult to find on many occasions, but we certainly want to have a really good appreciation of the environment and any potential inciting that could lead to lone actors engaging.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mrs. Block, you have three minutes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

It's good to be here again today. I've appreciated the testimony we've heard so far.

During the course of the testimony, we've heard that the engagement of CSIS is based on whether or not they perceive a possible threat to the national security of Canada and at what level.

My question goes to the documents that were tabled with the Special Joint Committee on the Declaration of Emergency. According to those documents, the national security adviser's briefing to the cabinet on the protests the night before the invocation includes the comment, “CSIS/CSE: No concerns at this time.”

Can you shed some light on the service's lack of concern about the protests even the night before the Emergencies Act was invoked?

[Cherie Henderson]

While I can't speak to particular investigations, I can say that we were watching for any opportunities the protest could have presented for IMVE actors to promote or engage in serious acts of violence. We were constantly monitoring streams of intelligence reporting.

When we are doing our intelligence assessments, they are constantly changing and can evolve as we watch any situations evolving. What can happen one day may change the next, depending on what we learn through another stream of intelligence reporting.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

During the protests, a few individuals, with perhaps a flawed understanding of the Constitution, promoted a so-called manifesto, which was rightly dismissed. However, some members of the Liberal government claimed this represented an attempt to overthrow the government.

On the other hand, the special joint committee heard evidence just last month from the Parliamentary Protective Service and from our Sergeant-at-Arms, who used to head the RCMP branch for protective policing, that they did not consider this to be a serious threat to national security at all. In fact, Mr. McDonell said, “I didn't take that comment seriously.”

Does the service share the perspective of the House's own security professionals?

[Cherie Henderson]

As I noted, I'm not going to be able to speak to specific incidents. I can just say we were constantly monitoring. If or when, in any of these situations, we learn of anything that could be a threat to the national security of our country, we ensure that the proper authorities are advised and take that into their decision-making processes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Naqvi, you have three minutes.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank the witnesses for their time today. It has been quite helpful to understand. I appreciate the sensitivity of the issues we're dealing with.

I just want to pick up from the questioning that Ms. Blaney has been engaged in, but starting perhaps from the top.

In your experience and assessment, was what we saw during the occupation in the earlier part of this year a fairly unique event, as it relates to Parliament and the parliamentary precinct here in Canada?

[Cherie Henderson]

That's a very interesting question.

I have been in this business now for almost 31 years. I would say that what we are seeing right now is unprecedented. We have threats facing us on all levels.

Today, we're speaking specifically about the IMVE threat that we are watching across the country, but we are also dealing with threats from foreign interference in our democratic processes, espionage and efforts to undermine our economic security. We're watching what is happening with Russia and the invasion of Ukraine.

From my appreciation of 30 years in this seat, we are in a very unprecedented threat environment at the moment. As we have been monitoring the IMVE threat, it has continued to really increase over the past few years. I think it is unprecedented.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you for that very thoughtful, enlightening and concerning answer. In light of what you just said, it should compel Parliament to look at extra measures or steps to ensure that the parliamentary precinct and, most importantly, parliamentarians and staff are well protected from this enhanced threat you're speaking of.

[Cherie Henderson]

It's very important for parliamentarians and all Canadians to have a very good appreciation of the national security threat environment. We have definitely seen over the past few years an increase in violent rhetoric and actions taken against our parliamentarians. I believe they all need to ensure that they have personal security.